Why doctors are sick of their profession • Hacker News Board

Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#131

Post by joshuaheard » Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 12:35 AM UTC

alexqgb wrote: post #92

mynameishere wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, chill. Not to intrude on your fantasy world too much, but a few things: 1. The left wing of the baby boom is going to die with the right. 2. The baby boomers were famously a bunch of hippies and radicals. More seriously, they were easily the most liberal-minded generation in America at the time--and they may still be. 3. This country's ongoing demographic transformation into Brazil is not going to help the heal…

Um, you may have missed the point. 1. The thing that distinguishes the values of the Civil Rights era reactionaries is that they're generally failing to transmit themselves from one generation to a next. So unlike the more egalitarian values of the left - which are actually growing stronger with each subsequent generation - the bigotry of the right is uniquely tied to the lifespans of specific people. When they die,…

I'm not sure how racism worked its way into an article on health care. But, your assertions that the TEA Party and Republicans are inherently racist are misplaced. Let's start with a little history. Lincoln who freed the slaves, Republican. Jim Crow laws, Southern Democrats. Most votes against the 1964 Civil Rights act, Democrat. Inner cities where blacks are oppressed, run by Democrats. In fact, you would be hard pressed to find any racism in the TEA Party or Republican party. And, while Democrats profess to want to help blacks, it is their actions and policies that are hurting them more.

Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#132

Post by MaysonL » Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 12:43 AM UTC

vacri wrote: post #111

wtbob wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right that the current healthcare industry is far from a free market, but javert too is right that the golden age of American healthcare was when it was far closer to a free market. Interestingly, the golden age for physicians' personal wealth was during the socialisation phase, as they were able to pocket fees increasingly paid by insurers, leading to a quintupling in income. They went from lower-middle class…

When were doctors ever 'lower-middle class' in any western society?

When I was a kid in the '50s, our family doctor lived and had his office in a house little larger than ours, in much the same neighborhood as ours: definitely middle class.

Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#133

Post by angersock » Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 12:45 AM UTC

dmfdmf wrote: post #104

2mur wrote: post #84

I'm a physician. I love the value I bring to patients, and I enjoy what I do (most of the time). But the industry is disgusting. The people who are creating the real value for patients (nurses, technicians and doctors) have been saddled with increasing regulations and there are incredibly levels of administrators and belt-phone business guys riding them to extract every profit out of the environment. There is no chan…

The doctors lost the argument decades ago when they agreed that people had a right to medical services. It was self-imposed slavery (because they agreed) and now we are just discussing the details (e.g. Obamacare, medicare, etc.) and the govt programs that steal from people to pay for medical services are just windows dressing to make it look civilized and moral. The good news is that your rights are inalienable, you…

I'm rather sure that the turning point in medicine would've been the introduction of health insurance at scale and the consolidation of healthcare institutions over the past twenty years.

In a modern civilization, in a first-world nation, healthcare is a right--if it isn't, then I would like to have back the rights to monopoly of force I've granted to the government.

Also, HIPAA is not that hard.

Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#134

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 12:48 AM UTC

joshuaheard wrote: post #131

alexqgb wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, you may have missed the point. 1. The thing that distinguishes the values of the Civil Rights era reactionaries is that they're generally failing to transmit themselves from one generation to a next. So unlike the more egalitarian values of the left - which are actually growing stronger with each subsequent generation - the bigotry of the right is uniquely tied to the lifespans of specific people. When they die,…

I'm not sure how racism worked its way into an article on health care. But, your assertions that the TEA Party and Republicans are inherently racist are misplaced. Let's start with a little history. Lincoln who freed the slaves, Republican. Jim Crow laws, Southern Democrats. Most votes against the 1964 Civil Rights act, Democrat. Inner cities where blacks are oppressed, run by Democrats. In fact, you would be hard pr…

[deleted]

Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#135

Post by CamperBob2 » Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 1:34 AM UTC

dmfdmf wrote: post #127

phren0logy wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am also an MD, and I find you embarrassing. The core of medicine is service to others. Granted, we could do a better job of advocating for ourselves, but you are doing it wrong.

Its not clear how anyone can make someone else embarrassed for views they don't share. I'd have more respect for you if you called me an idiot for my views but your embarrassment at my claims makes me think that you actually know the truth, but lack the courage to rethink it. > we [doctors] could do a better job advocating for ourselves... Its all just negotiating the terms of your slavery if you agree that people ha…

Would you say that policemen and soldiers are slaves, too? In a sense, their job is to maintain and enforce civil rights for the rest of us.

Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#136

Post by CamperBob2 » Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 1:38 AM UTC

javert wrote: post #42

toasted wrote: post #38

Non-US anaesthesiologist here. I love my job and relish going to work each morning. I spend almost no time on non-clinical paperwork. I work reasonable hours, have some busy on-call shifts but am generally well supported by my department. I earn good money in the state system - enough to raise a family comfortably and have a nice house, but not silly money. I pay no malpractice insurance, but pay $400 annually to a n…

The actual experience in the US has been that healthcare functioned best when it was closest to a free market, and the more we socialize it, the worse it gets. (We have been slowly socializing it for many decades through regulation.) You can argue that we haven't been socializing it "properly," but the way we are doing it is just the way government works in the US, and that's not going to change. In general, we don't…

It's not a free market if you're forced to participate in it. Which we all are, by virtue of being alive.

Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#137

Post by phren0logy » Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 1:41 AM UTC

dmfdmf wrote: post #127

phren0logy wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am also an MD, and I find you embarrassing. The core of medicine is service to others. Granted, we could do a better job of advocating for ourselves, but you are doing it wrong.

Its not clear how anyone can make someone else embarrassed for views they don't share. I'd have more respect for you if you called me an idiot for my views but your embarrassment at my claims makes me think that you actually know the truth, but lack the courage to rethink it. > we [doctors] could do a better job advocating for ourselves... Its all just negotiating the terms of your slavery if you agree that people ha…

If you are British enough you can be embarrassed for anyone. I find you embarrassing because your point of view ignores the fiduciary nature of a doctor-patient relationship. That relationship is both sacred and humbling, and the most amazing thing in my otherwise paperwork-laden clinical life. For patients to trust me enough to tell me everything is a duty to be met with respect.

Putting patients first is the part that seems "right." That's not a coincidence, it's the job.

Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#138

Post by rpgmaker » Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 1:59 AM UTC

dmfdmf wrote: post #104

2mur wrote: post #84

I'm a physician. I love the value I bring to patients, and I enjoy what I do (most of the time). But the industry is disgusting. The people who are creating the real value for patients (nurses, technicians and doctors) have been saddled with increasing regulations and there are incredibly levels of administrators and belt-phone business guys riding them to extract every profit out of the environment. There is no chan…

The doctors lost the argument decades ago when they agreed that people had a right to medical services. It was self-imposed slavery (because they agreed) and now we are just discussing the details (e.g. Obamacare, medicare, etc.) and the govt programs that steal from people to pay for medical services are just windows dressing to make it look civilized and moral. The good news is that your rights are inalienable, you…

Heh, one of those funny and stupid (fringe) libertarian ideas one comes across from time to time. HIPAA is actually relatively old so I think you're probably recycling an old comment you made on some web "portal" a while back.

Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#139

Post by jasonisalive » Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 2:16 AM UTC

tim333 wrote: post #118

dmfdmf wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The doctors lost the argument decades ago when they agreed that people had a right to medical services. It was self-imposed slavery (because they agreed) and now we are just discussing the details (e.g. Obamacare, medicare, etc.) and the govt programs that steal from people to pay for medical services are just windows dressing to make it look civilized and moral. The good news is that your rights are inalienable, you…

>when they agreed that people had a right to medical services ... It was self-imposed slavery... We've had rights to medical services in most of the developed world outside the US for decades. Doctors have high salaries and reasonable conditions for the most part. Funny version of slavery.

The use of the term "slavery" here is pretty standard rhetoric used for emphasis by the American libertarian movement; its use descends from the vocabulary developed by the body of anti-Socialist thinkers in the early to mid-20th century.

A more sophisticated rhetorician would argue that the various bodies of your society (those who pay for the universal medical services via taxation, those who partake of the medical services offered, those who actually provide the services (i.e. the doctors), and those who administer and regulate the provision of service) have all internalised and unconsciously accept a worldview which debases and discredits the right to free action of individuals in society. You may not be slaves in the classical sense of being enslaved by a third party, but from the perspective of someone with a "strong" view of personal liberty, you are in a sense enslaved to your own lowered expectations and faith in liberty.

So while you might all claim that you are perfectly content with your current system, your critic would view your opinions as hopelessly biased, and point to what they would classify as numerous instances of the poor results of socialised healthcare (incessant arguments about over-spending and budget problems, claims of corruption in service administrators, complaints of high wait time and low quality of service, low morale and satisfaction among service providers) as evidence to strengthen their claim.

Re: Why doctors are sick of their profession

#140

Post by jasonisalive » Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 2:18 AM UTC

dmfdmf wrote: post #123

tim333 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>when they agreed that people had a right to medical services ... It was self-imposed slavery... We've had rights to medical services in most of the developed world outside the US for decades. Doctors have high salaries and reasonable conditions for the most part. Funny version of slavery.

Window dressing, as I said. And how long will this system last when the doctors are extremely unhappy now and things will get worse as the govt takes more control away from the doctors? It should give you some concern that 2mur's sentiment is common today among doctors; "There is no chance I would do it again". Do you think doctors can be replaced by govt bureaucrats following the Code of Federal Regulations? Good lu…

All socialist interventions weaken the marketplace and require further such intervention. They all require progressive restrictions of liberty and the logical end result in each and every case, no matter how benign the beginnings, must (as you have suggested) be outright slavery.