Hal Finney being cryopreserved now • Hacker News Board

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#131

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 10:14 PM UTC

eudox wrote: post #44

thenmar wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you mind sharing some of that evidence? I certainly understand the desire to be cryopreserved, but given the lack of proof of concept (I'd love to be contradicted here!) and how little we know about the brain, it seems like a desperate Hail Mary marketed to wealthy tech folks as sound science.

Electron micrography of cryopreserved tissue shows pretty good preservation[0][1], and since every aspect of the mind is dependent on physical properties of the brain, the possibility of revival exists as long as structure and context are preserved in the brain. >marketed to wealthy tech folks Cryonics has historically been a middle class thing. [0] http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/micrographs.html [1] http://www.al…

Electron microscopy of a ram chip shows no difference at all between one that contains a bunch of data and one that is empty.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#132

Post by tzs » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 10:14 PM UTC

dublinben wrote: post #11

NhanH wrote: post #7

On the topic of cryopreservation, to borrow a question from Scott Aaronson [1]: have you signed up for cryopreservation? And regardless of your answer, how do you defend yourself against the charge of irrationality? On one hand, it seems like a different version of Pascal's wager - if you can afford it, the upside is potentially far more beneficial than the downside. On the other hand, well, it is crazy... I can thin…

On the other hand, I think most inquisitive folks and Sci-Fi nerds would pay anything to travel into the future (beyond a single lifetime).

Sci-Fi nerds who have read Niven's "known space" stories, particular those in the Gil the ARM timeframe, might not be so interested in the corpsicle method of travel into the future.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#133

Post by brey » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 10:17 PM UTC

FiloSottile wrote: post #39

It's fascinating, and personally a bit disturbing, to read about his death as an announcement of cryopreservation ("being cryopreserved now") instead of the sad news it is anyway ("died today"). Also the discussion here revolves around he coming back, not he leaving. Maybe it impresses me because he seemed so hopeful to be able to choose life in his post back then when he was diagnosed: "I may even still be able to w…

It sounds from the language used ("he did not want his vital functions supported any further but should be allowed to cease functioning and promptly be cryopreserved") that he didn't regard this moment as death at all - merely pausing his life until a) ALS is curable and b) we have the technology to reawaken cryopreserved people.

To him, all that was worth announcing here is the cryopreservation.

Who's to say he's wrong?

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#134

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 10:20 PM UTC

pron wrote: post #126

jacquesm wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A common element in scams is that they make promises they can't deliver on and relieve people of their funds.

But what if what you really need is not the promise to be delivered (which will be long in the future in any case) but it to be fully convincing. That is, you're paying for a convincing promise -- not for its fulfillment (then again, some would say that all scams work like that)

Yes, I understand what you're driving at. But wishes, horses, beggars. This is a scam, pure and simple in the long term with decreasing chances of probability either one of the following things will happen: people will stop believing this and rationality will reassert itself, people will continue to believe until we run out of resources to preserve all the vitrified corpses (it's essentially a graveyard without the benefit of decomposition and filling up billions of dewar flasks with liquid nitrogen is not the most rewarding job) and then it will be time for some tough decisions on how to clean up the mess, the last person on the planet will attempt to cryopreserve themselves in the faint hope that maybe one day in the distant future and hopefully before the sun runs out to power the fully automated planetwide cryogenics facility aliens will discover planet earth and will revive us all or miraculously someone will figure out how to restore all the preserved people in some substrate or give them new bodies (never mind the details here) and will successfully deal with all the social upheaval that will cause (luxury problems).

If the voting in this thread is any indication there are a lot of believers.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#135

Post by zanny » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 10:22 PM UTC

s_q_b wrote: post #123

zanny wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are already on the cusp of rapid automation of our current economy. Traditional models of how labor is distributed or utilized will, and have been, going out the window for quite some time. But I think you can approximate well enough that by the time the technology arises to resurrect the cryopreserved, it won't require the entire effort of humanity to revive their frozen forbearers, because most of humanity won't…

The next step in your calculation is to ask, "What are the constraints on production in a society that has ultra-high automation but no artificial intelligence?" There is only one: intelligence. I can see such a society going to great lengths to obtain that resource. The incentives to revive an individual for unfortunate purposes in such a society would be very large.

How are the purposes unfortunate? I see the connection between the cryopreserved often being smart folk, so that in the future at some point it might be adventageous to revive them for their intellect, but...

Consider that by the time they can perfect the nanotechnology to repair the brain damage dealt by the freezing process, they will easily be able to genetically engineer a near maximally capable brain. Why not just genetically engineer humans that have high cognitive potential than try to reintegrate those so long dead they cannot function in this futuristic society?

It won't cost them much to revive people, but I don't expect the preserved to be sought after for their intellect.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#136

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 10:26 PM UTC

cjbprime wrote: post #106

eudox wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you specifically mentioned kidneys: >In the summer of 2005, where he was a keynote speaker at the annual Society for Cryobiology meeting, Fahy announced that Twenty-First Century Medicine had successfully cryopreserved a rabbit kidney at -130°C by vitrification and transplanted it into a rabbit after rewarming, with subsequent long-term life support by the vitrified-rewarmed kidney as the sole kidney. This rese…

That's exciting, thank you for the correction. (Happen to know whether they've done any larger organs?)

Entire animals can freeze:

http://www.livescience.com/32175-can-frogs-survive-being-fro...

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#137

Post by pron » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 10:28 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #134

pron wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what if what you really need is not the promise to be delivered (which will be long in the future in any case) but it to be fully convincing. That is, you're paying for a convincing promise -- not for its fulfillment (then again, some would say that all scams work like that)

Yes, I understand what you're driving at. But wishes, horses, beggars. This is a scam, pure and simple in the long term with decreasing chances of probability either one of the following things will happen: people will stop believing this and rationality will reassert itself, people will continue to believe until we run out of resources to preserve all the vitrified corpses (it's essentially a graveyard without the b…

> people will stop believing this and rationality will reassert itself

Those are two very different things. Rationality will not reassert itself (has it ever been asserted? :)) because human existence is probably not compatible with pervasive rationality (i.e. rationality in humans is limited to very narrow scopes, usually those that don't scare us or induce other strong emotions), but people will stop believing this and start believing something else, or -- many won't believe this to begin with because believing in cryonics contradicts their other beliefs. If cryonics were compatible with, say, Christianity, then the resurrected would be really pissed for being dragged out of heaven. In fact, this contradiction with other, far more ubiquitous religions and most of all -- the contradiction with people's income -- will keep cryonics a very exclusive religion (like Scientology, only for geeks rather than Hollywood actors), so we need not worry running out of room in that particular, cold, cold heaven.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#138

Post by WalterBright » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 10:28 PM UTC

Hal was one year ahead of me, and the next dorm room over at Caltech. Hal was scary smart - but you had to get to know him for a while before you'd find that out. He was completely unpretentious, just a regular guy.

And a great person - I never knew anyone who had anything but good things to say about Hal. It was a privilege to know Hal.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#139

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 10:30 PM UTC

pron wrote: post #137

jacquesm wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I understand what you're driving at. But wishes, horses, beggars. This is a scam, pure and simple in the long term with decreasing chances of probability either one of the following things will happen: people will stop believing this and rationality will reassert itself, people will continue to believe until we run out of resources to preserve all the vitrified corpses (it's essentially a graveyard without the b…

> people will stop believing this and rationality will reassert itself Those are two very different things. Rationality will not reassert itself (has it ever been asserted? :)) because human existence is probably not compatible with pervasive rationality (i.e. rationality in humans is limited to very narrow scopes, usually those that don't scare us or induce other strong emotions), but people will stop believing this…

At least - unlike Scientology - it only messes with their brains after they die.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#140

Post by SeoxyS » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 10:33 PM UTC

ericb wrote: post #4

I'm curious--in these cryopreservation arrangements, what is done to incentivize future people to resurrect you? Anyone know?

Self-interest. In order to preserve the continued success of the Alcor company.

In order for people to continue buying cryogenic services, the company would have to be able to demonstrate that it's actually doing what it claims to do (keep the bodies frozen and stable). As soon as that stops, nobody would ever trust them with any business, ever. And as soon as revival is possible, it becomes the cheapest option, versus incurring the ongoing costs of preservation.