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Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

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Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#41

Post by declan »

jkaljundi wrote: post #38
declan wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>if you can afford it, the upside is potentially far more beneficial than the downside I looked into this in some detail a while ago, and I recall Alcor indicated that many of its members opt for life insurance (with Alcor as a beneficiary) to cover the cost of cryopreservation. That's something like $75K to cryopreserve your head, and $150K for whole-body cryospreservation. I suspect the mean age of HN readers skews…

How does the math work for paying let's say 60 years times <$100 and cashing out $150k at the end?

I know other folks active on HN actually work in the insurance industry, and hopefully they'll jump in. But there are different types of life insurance. For most HN readers term life insurance (pay $100 a year for 10 years for $150K in death benefits, and then the policy ends) makes the most sense. There's no "cash out" at the end...

There are other types tied to investment vehicles that go by names like universal and variable life insurance. Those can have certain tax advantages and can let you build that "cash value" you mentioned.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#42

Post by wlesieutre »

jkaljundi wrote: post #38
declan wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>if you can afford it, the upside is potentially far more beneficial than the downside I looked into this in some detail a while ago, and I recall Alcor indicated that many of its members opt for life insurance (with Alcor as a beneficiary) to cover the cost of cryopreservation. That's something like $75K to cryopreserve your head, and $150K for whole-body cryospreservation. I suspect the mean age of HN readers skews…

How does the math work for paying let's say 60 years times <$100 and cashing out $150k at the end?

I assume that your rates go up as you age and get more likely to die. In your 20's it's only covering improbably illnesses and events like car accidents. But nobody's going to extend those same rates to you once you're 85 and already had two heart attacks.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#43

Post by strlen »

Here's an interesting discussion results about near-term studies on inducing hypothermia was a way to save gun shot victims from brain death:

The article -- http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22129623.000-gunshot-v...

HN discussion with some insightful commentary -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7477801

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#44

Post by eudox »

thenmar wrote: post #40
reasonattlm wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why crazy? There's good supporting evidence for sufficient preservation of fine neural structure via vitrification. The oldest existing cryopreservation organizations have lasted 40 years since their formation as professional groups. There is no known obstacle in the laws of physics to developing molecular nanotechnology capable of restoring a cryopreserved individual: it's just a technology challenge in organization…

Would you mind sharing some of that evidence? I certainly understand the desire to be cryopreserved, but given the lack of proof of concept (I'd love to be contradicted here!) and how little we know about the brain, it seems like a desperate Hail Mary marketed to wealthy tech folks as sound science.

Electron micrography of cryopreserved tissue shows pretty good preservation[0][1], and since every aspect of the mind is dependent on physical properties of the brain, the possibility of revival exists as long as structure and context are preserved in the brain.

>marketed to wealthy tech folks

Cryonics has historically been a middle class thing.

[0] http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/micrographs.html

[1] http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/braincryopreservation1.htm...

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#45

Post by cjbprime »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #10
NhanH wrote: post #7

On the topic of cryopreservation, to borrow a question from Scott Aaronson [1]: have you signed up for cryopreservation? And regardless of your answer, how do you defend yourself against the charge of irrationality? On one hand, it seems like a different version of Pascal's wager - if you can afford it, the upside is potentially far more beneficial than the downside. On the other hand, well, it is crazy... I can thin…

I would argue that cryopreservation is the belief in the increasing rate of scientific progress (which can measured and proven), and that it is far more rational than the tens of millions of people who attend church every Saturday or Sunday in search of salvation for their soul. As /u/dublinben mentioned, I'd give my entire wealth to have the opportunity to live in the future.

> I would argue that cryopreservation is the belief in the increasing rate of scientific progress (which can measured and proven)

The problem is that you aren't just depending on future improvements in revival technology, you're depending on the current state of today's preservation technology (at the point you die).

And today's preservation technology doesn't have a lot of evidence suggesting that it can work to successfully preserve a kidney, much less a brain.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#46

Post by raverbashing »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #10
NhanH wrote: post #7

On the topic of cryopreservation, to borrow a question from Scott Aaronson [1]: have you signed up for cryopreservation? And regardless of your answer, how do you defend yourself against the charge of irrationality? On one hand, it seems like a different version of Pascal's wager - if you can afford it, the upside is potentially far more beneficial than the downside. On the other hand, well, it is crazy... I can thin…

I would argue that cryopreservation is the belief in the increasing rate of scientific progress (which can measured and proven), and that it is far more rational than the tens of millions of people who attend church every Saturday or Sunday in search of salvation for their soul. As /u/dublinben mentioned, I'd give my entire wealth to have the opportunity to live in the future.

On the other hand, you'll be living in the future, and probably unemployable since things will have evolved so much.

Maybe everybody speaks something else other than English and even communicating is a pain (even with good translation resources)

You'll know nobody. All the things that you know by "home" are gone.

It'll probably be cool for the first weeks, then an absolute drag.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#47

Post by eudox »

cjbprime wrote: post #45
toomuchtodo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that cryopreservation is the belief in the increasing rate of scientific progress (which can measured and proven), and that it is far more rational than the tens of millions of people who attend church every Saturday or Sunday in search of salvation for their soul. As /u/dublinben mentioned, I'd give my entire wealth to have the opportunity to live in the future.

> I would argue that cryopreservation is the belief in the increasing rate of scientific progress (which can measured and proven) The problem is that you aren't just depending on future improvements in revival technology, you're depending on the current state of today's preservation technology (at the point you die). And today's preservation technology doesn't have a lot of evidence suggesting that it can work to suc…

Since you specifically mentioned kidneys:

>In the summer of 2005, where he was a keynote speaker at the annual Society for Cryobiology meeting, Fahy announced that Twenty-First Century Medicine had successfully cryopreserved a rabbit kidney at -130°C by vitrification and transplanted it into a rabbit after rewarming, with subsequent long-term life support by the vitrified-rewarmed kidney as the sole kidney. This research breakthrough was later published in the peer-reviewed journal Organogenesis.[0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Fahy

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15094092

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#48

Post by s_q_b »

reasonattlm wrote: post #16
NhanH wrote: post #7

On the topic of cryopreservation, to borrow a question from Scott Aaronson [1]: have you signed up for cryopreservation? And regardless of your answer, how do you defend yourself against the charge of irrationality? On one hand, it seems like a different version of Pascal's wager - if you can afford it, the upside is potentially far more beneficial than the downside. On the other hand, well, it is crazy... I can thin…

Why crazy? There's good supporting evidence for sufficient preservation of fine neural structure via vitrification. The oldest existing cryopreservation organizations have lasted 40 years since their formation as professional groups. There is no known obstacle in the laws of physics to developing molecular nanotechnology capable of restoring a cryopreserved individual: it's just a technology challenge in organization…

Who's to say that the choice to survive in the distant future is desirable?

Everyone you know and love will have been long dead, and any society with both the means and will to revive you may have undesirable objectives in mind, e.g. a life of slavery or military conscription. From a global perspective, what are the potential impacts on the species of an eternal elite, obsessed with life extension, creating an ever-growing class of ancient capital holders?

Assuming both constant human nature and the lack of an self-reinforcing intelligence cascade (i.e. no singularity event), survival is not an obviously rational choice.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#50

Post by jdnier »

Ancillary to the sad news, for a fictional treatment of cryopreservation (circa 1993) -- one that I couldn't help think about as I read that email/release -- Gregory Benford's novel, Chiller, works through many of the thought-provoking implications. http://www.gregorybenford.com/product/chiller/
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