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I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

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Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#61

Post by taternuts »

notjustanymike wrote: post #33

Maybe he should have picked a better major. No one takes an MIS degree seriously.

I don't think that's true. Obviously the person with a CS degree will be hired over the person with the MIS degree all other things being equal, but it's up to the candidate to spend time to create a portfolio or something that shows they know what they are doing and can code. If you're too lazy to do the CS route and plan to go MIS then get a programming job, then you have to be un-lazy in your free time to make up for it.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#62

Post by jerf »

mordocai wrote: post #34
jerf wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Maybe it's a crazy idea, but universities are not, and were never intended to be, career training centers." Maybe it's a crazy idea, but they are equally not intended to be places where you go and learn nothing of value to anybody. I mean, I get the whole academic focus thing too, but the described education wasn't focused on academic computer science either. It was simply useless. Moreover, the idea that academics…

The problem is, you are thinking Computer Science == Computer Programming. You are wrong. Computer Science is more math than programming, if you want to learn marketable skills get a different computer degree. Most colleges offer a more practically oriented degree.

"The problem is, you are thinking Computer Science == Computer Programming."

No, I'm not.

I'm saying you can't function as a computer scientist with 0 programming, and trying to train Computer Scientists in general while somehow shielding or protecting them from programming is something I'd look at very disfavorably. Even computer scientists need to program once in a while. A Computer Science program is doing a disservice to its "Computer Scientists" if it somehow manages to fail to teach them anything about programming.

And to be honest, I find it utterly, mindblowing absurd that anybody could take the alternative seriously. Think about it a bit.

In fact I'd go so far as to say that one of the several major problems facing the University system as a whole right now is this whole idea that theoreticians across all disciplines can somehow be fully severed from all practical considerations, as a result of too many people mindlessly chanting that Universities aren't vocational programs. A theoretician operating without any input from the practical world is a theoretician wasting his or her time, producing theories that will ultimately not even be of academic interest.

(There are very, very specific disciplines in computer science that might be able to get away with 0 programming, BUT the generic undergrad courses would not be able to be that focused. The generic undergrad courses need to be teaching some useful programming stuff.)

"Most colleges offer a more practically oriented degree."

You might want to check that. "Software engineering" or something is actually fairly rare as a distinct major, and while there will often be an "information systems" major of some sort (which it sounds like is what this guy actually took), that isn't so much "more practical" as "a reduced version" of the courses, often reduced to the point that you won't learn "programming" at all.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#63

Post by mordocai »

collyw wrote: post #41
mordocai wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, you are thinking Computer Science == Computer Programming. You are wrong. Computer Science is more math than programming, if you want to learn marketable skills get a different computer degree. Most colleges offer a more practically oriented degree.

Computer science / real world programming work is a mish mash of concepts and practice, and everything in between. Most of the hot research these days seems to be coming from places like Google rather than universities. Certainly the stuff I her about.

That's how it works. Generally with theoretical research, especially math-heavy disciplines like computer science, the distance in time from you coming up with a theory and someone finding a practical application for it is large enough that most people don't even put the two together, unless it was a pretty major deal in academic circles when it was theorized. On the other hand, the things we in the industry care about are not going to come from universities(at least not recent things from universities) but rahter companies like google.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#64

Post by mordocai »

KrisAndrew wrote: post #54
mordocai wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, you are thinking Computer Science == Computer Programming. You are wrong. Computer Science is more math than programming, if you want to learn marketable skills get a different computer degree. Most colleges offer a more practically oriented degree.

It depends on the style of the college. Computer Science is certainly much more than math. I'd sooner employ a CS major who took foreign languages than one who supplemented his coursework with tons of math classes. Those special/practical degrees that schools offer are just fluff and end up pigeonholing you. If you're going to be a software developer, then computer science is the degree that's most helpful.

I'm not an expert on all colleges in america, it sounds like I came across as thinking that way so I apologize. Right or not, the Computer Science courses at the University I was enrolling in (I ended up dropping out of college due to life issues) was 60% math 30% computer theory and 10% programming. I know, because I talked with the Department Chair and actually studied what the degree would do for me before deciding it was my path. I was fully aware i'd need to work on practical projects in my free time to get a job.

Instead, I just got a job by showing off said practical projects with no degree.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#65

Post by mordocai »

jerf wrote: post #62
mordocai wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, you are thinking Computer Science == Computer Programming. You are wrong. Computer Science is more math than programming, if you want to learn marketable skills get a different computer degree. Most colleges offer a more practically oriented degree.

"The problem is, you are thinking Computer Science == Computer Programming." No, I'm not. I'm saying you can't function as a computer scientist with 0 programming, and trying to train Computer Scientists in general while somehow shielding or protecting them from programming is something I'd look at very disfavorably. Even computer scientists need to program once in a while. A Computer Science program is doing a disse…

"You might want to check that."

You are correct. I should have said "Most colleges I considered when starting my degree".

Look, we might have to agree to disagree. What I think, and what the one Computer Science Department Head I spoke to thought, is that Computer Science is math. Period. Just like a degree in Math, it does not have to have a directly practical application to serve a purpose. The fact that we have machines that run these theories is purely a sideline to the theories themselves.

"A theoretician operating without any input from the practical world is a theoretician wasting his or her time, producing theories that will ultimately not even be of academic interest."

I'm sorry, but many many theories that have become helpful for practical purposes were created by someone 100s of years before who didn't have any "practical consideratinos". Just because something isn't useful NOW or even in our lifetime, doesn't mean it isn't useful.

Quite frankly, I think programming (distinct from computer science) should go back to an apprenticeship based program if we can make that sustainable, and computer science (as in the degree program) should be kept where it is: Mostly theorectical with a minor side of practicality occasionally.

Sure programmers sometimes need to understand Computer Science theory, but most of what the average programmer needs to know about it does not require a degree but simply reading a book or three.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#66

Post by kyllo »

jerf wrote: post #62
mordocai wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, you are thinking Computer Science == Computer Programming. You are wrong. Computer Science is more math than programming, if you want to learn marketable skills get a different computer degree. Most colleges offer a more practically oriented degree.

"The problem is, you are thinking Computer Science == Computer Programming." No, I'm not. I'm saying you can't function as a computer scientist with 0 programming, and trying to train Computer Scientists in general while somehow shielding or protecting them from programming is something I'd look at very disfavorably. Even computer scientists need to program once in a while. A Computer Science program is doing a disse…

I think you're exaggerating how impractical Computer Science curricula are. CSE courses at major universities generally include courses on everything from Systems Programming, to Compiler Construction, to Data Structures and Algorithms, to OOP design, to Database Systems, to Graphics Programming, to Web Programming, etc etc. Each one of these will (at least should!) have several homework assignments and a final project that all involve submitting working code.

I'm not saying that CSE degree programs shouldn't teach you how to write code or require you to write code. I'm just saying that they are not vocational training and therefore should not focus on training students to use whatever specific tools are popular in industry.

Contrast that with community college certificate programs where they offer courses like "C# Programming in Visual Studio" and "iOS Application Development." Those programs' mission is to get you a job, and they also cost much less time and money than a bachelor degree.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#67

Post by Tarrosion »

kstrauser wrote: post #58
Tarrosion wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you imagine "if you are studying accounting and want a job as an accountant, you'd better be doing your friends' taxes pro bono in your free time. Otherwise you're just not cut out for this career." I'm certainly sympathetic to the idea that if you want to be a developer, it's helpful for programming to be an area of passion. But it's not at all obvious to me why that passion must be expressed in a certain way. I…

> Can you imagine "if you are studying art and want a job as an artist, you'd better be doing drawing and uploading to deviantART in your free time. Otherwise you're just not cut out for this career." Yes. Yes, I can absolutely imagine judging someone in a partially-artistic field on whether they enjoy making art on their own time. That doesn't apply in every field, sure, and I bet chip designers don't generally go h…

I absolutely agree that when hiring an artist, you want that person to be excited about art. I suppose in a nutshell, my thought is: all time is your own time. Choosing to pursue a career in is a monumental investment of your own time into . We ought not judge as terribly different those who spend ~50 hours a week of their own time doing X and getting paid for it and those who spend ~50 hours per week of their own time doing X and getting paid for it and also spend 2 hours per week doing X on the side.

This is particularly true of developers: generally speaking, someone who has the technical ability to be a strong developer could make a good living in finance, accounting, consulting, etc. The very fact that they're applying for a software job rather than something else is a powerful signal that they'd rather spend half their waking hours on software than on something else.

...or am I missing something obvious? - wouldn't be the first time.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#68

Post by j_s »

It is unfortunate that this article gets featured when the author is obviously blowing smoke; it would be great to hear from someone actually in this boat.

The comments there pointed out another article by the same author last year, explaining how he turned down multiple jobs to start his own web design company: http://www.pennlive.com/opinion/2013/09/heres_why_why_more_a...

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#69

Post by tjr »

mordocai wrote: post #65
jerf wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The problem is, you are thinking Computer Science == Computer Programming." No, I'm not. I'm saying you can't function as a computer scientist with 0 programming, and trying to train Computer Scientists in general while somehow shielding or protecting them from programming is something I'd look at very disfavorably. Even computer scientists need to program once in a while. A Computer Science program is doing a disse…

"You might want to check that." You are correct. I should have said "Most colleges I considered when starting my degree". Look, we might have to agree to disagree. What I think, and what the one Computer Science Department Head I spoke to thought, is that Computer Science is math. Period. Just like a degree in Math, it does not have to have a directly practical application to serve a purpose. The fact that we have ma…

"Computer science" tends to be a pretty ambiguously-defined term, largely because it's a pretty awful term. Everything from AS/400 business programming to combinatorial mathematics could be plausibly lumped under "computer science".

My anecdotal experience seems to match jerf's: I can't think of any undergraduate computer science program that appeared to favor math over at least moderately practical topics. But I've also not seen any undergraduate computer science program that appeared to be job training.

A local community college offers an associate's degree in "computer programming", and their graduates strike me as more obviously employable in the real world than area university computer science graduates. They learn skills that are known to be desired by major area employers, and the program seems to carry more of a "this is all about getting a job" sort of attitude.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#70

Post by jerf »

mordocai wrote: post #65
jerf wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The problem is, you are thinking Computer Science == Computer Programming." No, I'm not. I'm saying you can't function as a computer scientist with 0 programming, and trying to train Computer Scientists in general while somehow shielding or protecting them from programming is something I'd look at very disfavorably. Even computer scientists need to program once in a while. A Computer Science program is doing a disse…

"You might want to check that." You are correct. I should have said "Most colleges I considered when starting my degree". Look, we might have to agree to disagree. What I think, and what the one Computer Science Department Head I spoke to thought, is that Computer Science is math. Period. Just like a degree in Math, it does not have to have a directly practical application to serve a purpose. The fact that we have ma…

"The fact that we have machines that run these theories is purely a sideline to the theories themselves."

I'm not sure you got my point entirely. If you've got a machine sitting there than can help you, you should use it.

If you're going to write about operating systems, you're an academic fool if you don't also actually take some time to gain some real experience on the very-cheap systems that can help validate that you actually do understand what you're learning about.

If you're going to do AI, you're an academic fool if you don't take the time to implement some of your theories and see how they actually perform. Who cares what someone hypothesizes may work in the field of computer vision if they have no implementation?

And so on and so forth. Even if it is just math, you are an idiot if you pass up the opportunity to implement something to verify your theories.

And the result will be courses, especially at the undergraduate level, that turn out to be useful both for academics, and for programmers who want to learn how to write theoretically grounded code. Which, remarkably, is exactly what we actually have.

You are not benefiting by trying to split academics off from practice. It's a stupid idea and a stupid ideal. It isn't a win for anybody.

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