Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 74 posts

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#51

Post by rwl »

kyllo wrote: post #5

"Maybe it’s a crazy idea, but if you’re going to spend all that money for a college education, shouldn’t you expect to learn real-world skills from people who know what they’re doing?" Maybe it's a crazy idea, but universities are not, and were never intended to be, career training centers. Helping you get a job is just not the mission of these institutions. And it's just as well; it would be highly unfortunate for t…

> Universities are designed to give you a firm grounding in the fundamental concepts, which should give you the ability to understand whatever tools are in fashion in the industry with relative ease.

One of the things that continually frustrates me about people's attitudes toward higher education (at least in the U.S.) is that they don't recognize this fact. An undergraduate university education should give you a general competence, self-motivation, and curiosity. More particular skills can be learned elsewhere; if you spend your time in college learning Java instead of learning to be a well-rounded, thinking, educated person, you're making an expensive mistake. Particular skills go stale quickly, and, unlike other subjects you could study instead, they often lack intrinsic interest.

Companies used to hire people with general competence and then train them in the particular skills they need on the job. I'm not sure why people now seem to expect students to learn these skills at universities, at their own expense. It seems to me that the burden of this training should be on industry, not on universities and their graduates.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#52

Post by ctdonath »

ducklobster wrote: post #35
kyllo wrote: post #5

"Maybe it’s a crazy idea, but if you’re going to spend all that money for a college education, shouldn’t you expect to learn real-world skills from people who know what they’re doing?" Maybe it's a crazy idea, but universities are not, and were never intended to be, career training centers. Helping you get a job is just not the mission of these institutions. And it's just as well; it would be highly unfortunate for t…

"Besides, if you're not doing any hacking in your free time outside of class anyway, you're probably not cut out for this career." I really dislike this mentality and it unfortunately seems to be the expressed by a lot of engineers (at least ones that have an internet presence). Just because you don't spend all of your time hacking away doesn't mean you aren't cut out for this career nor does it mean you can't be a g…

If you're not doing X in your free time outside of class anyway, you're probably not cut out for a career in X.

You should be pursuing a degree because it's a thorough & facilitated process of learning what you would be learning on your own anyway. You should be there because it's the fastest, most efficient way to get to the head of the pack of people who do have a tenacious passion for X and do spend a significant part of their free time on X. Every minute you're not doing something in X, you're not improving therein.

You think you're going to have a great career in X just by showing up for class and doing what's assigned? you think that will make for a good practitioner of X compared to others who live-and-breath the subject?

That you don't spend all your time on X doesn't mean you aren't cut out for this career and can't be great. The lead comment was "if you're not doing any X in your free time", not "if you're not spending all your free time on X". Don't wantonly construe the former as the latter.

But fact is, if you're not going above and beyond, you won't get above and beyond.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#53

Post by ctdonath »

collyw wrote: post #47
nmjohn wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You articulated perfectly exactly what I was thinking. I realize it is a popular idea among society - that college is a career training center - but that is patently false. It is an unfortunate idea too, because it leads to lots of people wasting thousands of dollars on an education they won't ever use in their career just for the sake of having the piece of paper they get at the end. > Besides, if you're not doing a…

Look at how many job ads, especially in software that require a degree in CS. To be fair, there are more technology related courses which are more vocational and not pure CS compared to 20 years ago, but its still seems to be the most common name for a university course teaching computer concepts.

Having a degree means you can be trusted to have a thorough education on the subject, without having to subject you to extensive testing therein.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#54

Post by KrisAndrew »

mordocai wrote: post #34
jerf wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Maybe it's a crazy idea, but universities are not, and were never intended to be, career training centers." Maybe it's a crazy idea, but they are equally not intended to be places where you go and learn nothing of value to anybody. I mean, I get the whole academic focus thing too, but the described education wasn't focused on academic computer science either. It was simply useless. Moreover, the idea that academics…

The problem is, you are thinking Computer Science == Computer Programming. You are wrong. Computer Science is more math than programming, if you want to learn marketable skills get a different computer degree. Most colleges offer a more practically oriented degree.

It depends on the style of the college. Computer Science is certainly much more than math. I'd sooner employ a CS major who took foreign languages than one who supplemented his coursework with tons of math classes. Those special/practical degrees that schools offer are just fluff and end up pigeonholing you. If you're going to be a software developer, then computer science is the degree that's most helpful.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#56

Post by mcmancini »

dstaley wrote: post #46
mcmancini wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice catch. Someone in the comments section pointed out that the WaPo actually listed MIS as one of their "most unemployable majors." (Is that irony on some level?) http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/08/26/t...

None of the "10 Most Unemployable Majors" are even remotely related to MIS (well maybe graphic design, but I'm sure that number is inflated by a lot of unemployed art majors).

Business management & administration

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#57

Post by kstrauser »

ctdonath wrote: post #53
collyw wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at how many job ads, especially in software that require a degree in CS. To be fair, there are more technology related courses which are more vocational and not pure CS compared to 20 years ago, but its still seems to be the most common name for a university course teaching computer concepts.

Having a degree means you can be trusted to have a thorough education on the subject, without having to subject you to extensive testing therein.

You forgot the sarcasm tag.

Having a degree means that you have a degree. Sadly, it absolutely does not mean that you have any particular level of education. Trust, but verify: I believe that a job candidate has 10 years experience and a master's in comp sci, but I'm still going to make them code FizzBuzz before we move on with the rest of the interview.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#58

Post by kstrauser »

Tarrosion wrote: post #44
ducklobster wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Besides, if you're not doing any hacking in your free time outside of class anyway, you're probably not cut out for this career." I really dislike this mentality and it unfortunately seems to be the expressed by a lot of engineers (at least ones that have an internet presence). Just because you don't spend all of your time hacking away doesn't mean you aren't cut out for this career nor does it mean you can't be a g…

Can you imagine "if you are studying accounting and want a job as an accountant, you'd better be doing your friends' taxes pro bono in your free time. Otherwise you're just not cut out for this career." I'm certainly sympathetic to the idea that if you want to be a developer, it's helpful for programming to be an area of passion. But it's not at all obvious to me why that passion must be expressed in a certain way. I…

> Can you imagine "if you are studying art and want a job as an artist, you'd better be doing drawing and uploading to deviantART in your free time. Otherwise you're just not cut out for this career."

Yes. Yes, I can absolutely imagine judging someone in a partially-artistic field on whether they enjoy making art on their own time. That doesn't apply in every field, sure, and I bet chip designers don't generally go home and make little 8088 clones for fun. But programming is still as much of a craft as an engineering discipline, and I'm suspicious of people who claim aspirations in the field without demonstrating that they actually enjoy it.

In interviews, I ask what projects a candidate has written on their own time. It doesn't have to be on GitHub. It doesn't have to be big. It doesn't have to be generally useful. One of the best responses I got was from a guy who'd been developing his own duck hunting journal for the last decade to track location, weather, etc. I'm not surprised to see that he's the lead engineer at his company now.

Post reply on HN