Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine • Hacker News Board

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#91

Post by nobodysfool » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:21 PM UTC

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #62

IgorPartola wrote: post #33

I am continually astounded by the amount of support Russia receives from HN commenters. Is it that the Russian propaganda so strong that it reaches all the way to the Bay area, or are there a lot of Russians on here? What I am wondering is when Russia will completely take over Ukraine and what will be the NATO position at that point? I have no delusions that NATO will not engage in any military conflict, since nobody…

There's disinformation coming from both sides. It's pretty hard to have any nuanced debate on this subject, as you'll inevitably be branded a shill.

That's true. My wife is from Tajikistan, she called her mom and asked about that Malaysian airlines flight that got shot down, and it was like they were speaking two different languages. She goes 'did you hear about that plane that Russia shot down' and her mom says 'oh you mean the one that Ukraine shot down because they thought it looked like Putin's plane?' we were quite confused about what she said until we watched the Russian news and they had a completely different story. The Russian news agencies are state actors, and that's all they ever were.

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#92

Post by IgorPartola » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:21 PM UTC

korzun wrote: post #85

IgorPartola wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say this map is propaganda? By who? The Ukrainian government? The one that can't get it's shit together to oppose this invasion, or really do much of anything managed to set up a whole bunch of very credible looking Twitter accounts, faked NATO satellite photos/reports, etc.? Ukraine has no propaganda because Ukraine doesn't have much of anything. These reports are very far from perfect, but they do seem to…

> Ukraine has no propaganda because Ukraine doesn't have much of anything. Yes. This part sums up how un-biased you are.

From comments currently further down:

> Shameless plug - try grasswire's crowdsourced feed, curated and fact-checked by hundreds of people in real-time. https://grasswire.com/#/newsfeeds/1fece014-714a-4cd9-a9dd-6b....

by austenallred

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#93

Post by vvpan » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:22 PM UTC

My personal concern in all this is that violence stops. Whether it's Russian or NATO intervention I think it's good and will eventually diminish the number of civilian casualties.

Also, a lot of the sources are not good at all.

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#94

Post by venomsnake » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:22 PM UTC

bpodgursky wrote: post #60

JacobEdelman wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am disappointed by the fact that while their are several comments supporting Russia almost all of them have been down voted a ton. You shouldn't down vote people just because you disagree with them.

If it's an issue which is remotely controversial and they are making useful contributions, I agree. If they are astroturfing for a country which is actively invading another sovereign nation, and lying through their teeth about it... I'm sorry, but you're not contributing to the discussion but instead are just spreading misinformation and your comment is not useful. Not all opinions are equally valid.

> If they are astroturfing for a country which is actively invading another sovereign nation, and lying through their teeth about it...

All of US circa 2003? No downvotes back then.

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#95

Post by ancap » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:22 PM UTC

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #29

ollysb wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legal or not they do seem to represent the will of the people, http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/crimea-celebrat...

You do realize that when a region is under strict military occupation, those who oppose the occupation cannot exactly openly voice their protests, while those who like it, can. There is a portion of the population who support the annexation of Crimea, but you cannot make any real judgement of it's size by the data we have. (IMHO It's probably >50%).

What evidence is there that during the vote there was "strict military occupation"?

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#96

Post by foobarqux » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:22 PM UTC

IgorPartola wrote: post #33

I am continually astounded by the amount of support Russia receives from HN commenters. Is it that the Russian propaganda so strong that it reaches all the way to the Bay area, or are there a lot of Russians on here? What I am wondering is when Russia will completely take over Ukraine and what will be the NATO position at that point? I have no delusions that NATO will not engage in any military conflict, since nobody…

The problem is that the same actions are interpreted differently based on who is doing them. If Russia were to support an overthrow of the Mexican government with one having a military and economic alliance with Russia the same people who bash Russia now would support the United States backing rebels, annexing territory and doing a military invasion.

edit: I expect a lot of downvotes but no rational arguments.

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#97

Post by vdaniuk » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:23 PM UTC

danmaz74 wrote: post #88

legohead wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's hard to support either Ukraine or Russia - you definitely can't believe what either have to say. Ukraine is still having protests in Kiev, and calling for impeachment of the person they just fought to have put in place there... we can't cry foul at Russia arms/tanks showing up, considering what we give to Israel et al. also, considering Putin's track record, this is too brute force for him. he does things in suc…

The protests in Kiev were asking the government to send more troops and material to the Donbas...

False equivalence is one of the most used tactics by Russian supporters/astroturfing. You can see it everywhere in this HN thread.

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#98

Post by akumen » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:24 PM UTC

IgorPartola wrote: post #48

akumen wrote: post #40

A quick scan on Russian sources shows no confirmation of a large scale invasion taking place. EU rhetoric also quickly changed since this morning and suddenly nobody is using the word "invasion" anymore. Ukraine crying "wolf", again until confirmed.

So Russia is known for having a strong propaganda machine. Moreover, Russia openly admitting that it is invading a sovereign nation though it's Kremlin-controlled media outlets (aka almost all media outlets in Russia) would mean trouble. So by Occam's Razor, Putin is telling the media he controls to cover up as much of this as possible. The EU rhetoric is a bit more nuanced, but probably comes from a similar place: i…

Source bias is always an issue.

I think we would all agree that western media doesn't have the best track record when it comes to "proof" either. Same goes for NATO imagery, I recall similar imagery as proof of WMDs in Iraq etc.

The images currently being circulated were actually captured on captured on 21-23 August 2014, a week ago during Russian military exercises near the border. The interesting thing is that the artillery positions are inside Russian territory and from what I can tell are pointing the wrong direction.

Time will tell. A much larger geopolitical game is being played here and Ukraine is just a pawn to be sacrificed.

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#99

Post by varsketiz » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:24 PM UTC

zorbo wrote: post #81

IgorPartola wrote: post #33

I am continually astounded by the amount of support Russia receives from HN commenters. Is it that the Russian propaganda so strong that it reaches all the way to the Bay area, or are there a lot of Russians on here? What I am wondering is when Russia will completely take over Ukraine and what will be the NATO position at that point? I have no delusions that NATO will not engage in any military conflict, since nobody…

I'm in a position where I'm mostly exposed to non-western information regarding the situation in Ukraine, since my girlfriend is Russian. It's funny to see the exact opposite story as the western media is giving. Stories about pro-russians being harassed by pro-western Urkainians and the government were (and are) abundant. From their point of view, a pro-russian government was illegitimately overthrown. General opini…

The "counter-party", which is Russian media is on the defensive for a good reason. They have a lot to be defensive about, ie http://www.businessinsider.com/nato-satellite-photo-evidence...

Russia is offensive in their actions and defensive in the words covering it up.

Would you like to provide examples of Ukraine's unfounded allegations against Russia?

Would you like to explain how this is needless escalation, when part of Ukraine is occupied by Russia?

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#100

Post by bellerocky » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:24 PM UTC

nokiaman wrote: post #41

xendo wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You registered to HN right after MH17 was shot down, just to post content blaming Ukraine for the crash. And now you are saying that this 'looks like propaganda'.

Sorry, was hell banned, so switched to new handle. Timing was coincidental. This map site was only recently registered. Does that mean anything? http://who.godaddy.com/whoisstd.aspx?domain=liveuamap.com http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=liveuamap Btw, wasn't blaming Ukraine for MH17, just saying we must keep an open mind, and wait for a full independent investigation before jumping to conclusions.

> Sorry, was hell banned

Aren't you not supposed to create another account after being banned? I wouldn't be surprised if you got hell banned again. You should email info@ycombinator.com to figure out how you can contribute again before creating another account after a hell ban.