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Ask YC: Are there *any* startups using ASP.NET?

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Re: Ask YC: Are there *any* startups using ASP.NET?

#41

Post by [deleted] »

DarrenStuart wrote: post #21
iamelgringo wrote: post #11

I'm finishing a survey of web development technologies class. We've covered everything from PHP to Perl + CGI, classic ASP and ASP.NET, and JSP. I spent this past summer learning RoR, and I plan on picking up Django next summer. [non-flame-bait personal opinion] And, I have to say that I came to a strong dislike for ASP.net. In fact I was carrying a 4.0 until this ASP.NET project. I disliked it so much, I didn't fini…

if you use datasets you can do all that boring sql stuff in 1 line of code. Also you can create a DAL and map those objects to the server controls without writing a line of code if you use VS2005 and above. MVC for asp.net is on the way btw.

[deleted]

Re: Ask YC: Are there *any* startups using ASP.NET?

#42

Post by DanielBMarkham »

sohail wrote: post #39
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most ASP.NET training sucks. Does that say it any better? It's not a matter of the lanugage or the platform, it's that the instruction and tools are lame. Certainly that isn't true for any platform, is it?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say!

Me neither. I must have booted up Big Endian again. I hate it when I do that.

Take two programmers who are novices. Throw them into any two languages. If we use an automated DAL and a mentor-apprentice training paradigm in both languages, I can have the ASP.NET guy up and running and more productive faster than the other guy. for writing average run-of-the-mill web apps

Re: Ask YC: Are there *any* startups using ASP.NET?

#43

Post by brlewis »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #28
iamelgringo wrote: post #11

I'm finishing a survey of web development technologies class. We've covered everything from PHP to Perl + CGI, classic ASP and ASP.NET, and JSP. I spent this past summer learning RoR, and I plan on picking up Django next summer. [non-flame-bait personal opinion] And, I have to say that I came to a strong dislike for ASP.net. In fact I was carrying a 4.0 until this ASP.NET project. I disliked it so much, I didn't fini…

I'll jump into the flames -- what the heck. The problem isn't ASP.NET: it's probably the way you were taught how to use it. The Microsoft tools do so much crap that it's like being put into a room full of levers and knobs with cryptic labels on them. Hard to know where to start or how to make things work. Sit down with somebody who is using one of the automated DALs (like NetTiers, NHibernate, CSLA, etc) and knows wh…

You mean that subset of straightforward business development that Microsoft thinks ASP.NET is for. If you want to put subtotals in a grid of financial numbers, for example, you either have to jump through hoops or move it off to Microsoft Reporting Services or Crystal Reports.

There's a wide gap between where ASP.NET's usefulness ends and where the really fancy stuff begins.

And yes, you totally can beat the libraries available on the "Dark Side." You'd have to try hard not to.

Re: Ask YC: Are there *any* startups using ASP.NET?

#44

Post by dbrush »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #28
iamelgringo wrote: post #11

I'm finishing a survey of web development technologies class. We've covered everything from PHP to Perl + CGI, classic ASP and ASP.NET, and JSP. I spent this past summer learning RoR, and I plan on picking up Django next summer. [non-flame-bait personal opinion] And, I have to say that I came to a strong dislike for ASP.net. In fact I was carrying a 4.0 until this ASP.NET project. I disliked it so much, I didn't fini…

I'll jump into the flames -- what the heck. The problem isn't ASP.NET: it's probably the way you were taught how to use it. The Microsoft tools do so much crap that it's like being put into a room full of levers and knobs with cryptic labels on them. Hard to know where to start or how to make things work. Sit down with somebody who is using one of the automated DALs (like NetTiers, NHibernate, CSLA, etc) and knows wh…

Splashup has about 100K users and didn't require much tweaking. Then again, I didn't use all the fancy frameworks and abstractions for abstractions.

Re: Ask YC: Are there *any* startups using ASP.NET?

#45

Post by dbrush »

brlewis wrote: post #43
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll jump into the flames -- what the heck. The problem isn't ASP.NET: it's probably the way you were taught how to use it. The Microsoft tools do so much crap that it's like being put into a room full of levers and knobs with cryptic labels on them. Hard to know where to start or how to make things work. Sit down with somebody who is using one of the automated DALs (like NetTiers, NHibernate, CSLA, etc) and knows wh…

You mean that subset of straightforward business development that Microsoft thinks ASP.NET is for. If you want to put subtotals in a grid of financial numbers, for example, you either have to jump through hoops or move it off to Microsoft Reporting Services or Crystal Reports. There's a wide gap between where ASP.NET's usefulness ends and where the really fancy stuff begins. And yes, you totally can beat the librarie…

Can you point me to someone that has beaten the libraries of the "Dark Side"? I'd like to check them out.

Re: Ask YC: Are there *any* startups using ASP.NET?

#47

Post by hello_moto »

falsestprophet wrote: post #32
tx wrote: post #8

There are plenty of startups using ASP.NET or Java-based tech. In fact most companies started by "business types" are .NET/Java because they are easier to find disposable coders for. You don't see as many .NET shops here because most posters are (a) young, (b) non-business types, and they had a chance to pick a technology. Most went with something dynamic and Linux-based. We did too. We're on RoR, despite having tons…

d. street cred

Lol. I agree 100% with this one, you'll get instant visitors from the RoR world + Web designers.

Re: Ask YC: Are there *any* startups using ASP.NET?

#48

Post by DanielBMarkham »

mrtron wrote: post #40
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the use of standard abstractions and conventions in something like a DAL show a lack of what, exactly?

It shows a lack of nothing. What DAL is a code generator that writes large quantities of code based on your 'models'? It simply provides a better or easier interface. Here is what I meant: When a commercial application becomes popular to generate large amounts of code to do a small amount of work, like some CRUD, I personally feel that shows a flaw in the fundamental way the language works. The language should either…

I'm hoping I'm not getting into a flame war -- not my intent.

Here's the problem with what you said -- the word "code". It's not defined. In any kind of large environment, my application uses all kinds of compiled code. So what if I push a button or flick a switch to use another hunk of code that I don't have to write or test? Is using System.Io somehow "better" than say, having an automated macro that generates IO based on some user preference?

Yes -- I would agree that if I have to write and maintain a large amount of code to do easy stuff we've got a problem somewhere. But if my platform is powerful enough to allow me to use multiple Data Access paradigms without any work on my part? Who cares if when I flip the switch the code is generated and compiled or if it was generated and compiled last week or last year?

Take a look at something like CodeSmith. Here's a tool that uses .NET to write programs for .NET. Now yes, you can generate a lot of code that way -- if you want to look at it like that. You can also go and get open source libraries and templates that will generate tested, proven, full-featured libraries based on your particular situation. Isn't that a much better thing than simply having one paradigm that everybody has to shoe-horn their work into?

Re: Ask YC: Are there *any* startups using ASP.NET?

#49

Post by hello_moto »

iamelgringo wrote: post #23
hello_moto wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should either use NHibernate, SubSonic or wait for EDM/LinQ in the upcoming ASP.NET so you won't deal with 5-6 lines of ADO.NET code. But I have to agree with you, it's not that straightforward to understand ASP.NET esp if you have previous knowledge of developing web-app because ASP.NET tries to abstract everything out for you (via their Controls, ViewState etc). On the other side, ASP.NET might not be disciplin…

Wow, thanks, Guys. If I were still working on that project I'd probably pick your brains a bit more. And, I think that you hit the nail on the head about abstracting everything out for me. In the short ammount of time, I just couldn't grokk it, but I knew I didn't like it. It seemed like ASP.NET was a purposefull movement away from typical web development. And, I'm sure that Microsoft was trying to fix problems that…

Better solution depends largely on how your brain works. Some people brain map better with LISP, some work better with OOP/Java.

Re: Ask YC: Are there *any* startups using ASP.NET?

#50

Post by sohail »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #42
sohail wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say!

Me neither. I must have booted up Big Endian again. I hate it when I do that. Take two programmers who are novices. Throw them into any two languages. If we use an automated DAL and a mentor-apprentice training paradigm in both languages, I can have the ASP.NET guy up and running and more productive faster than the other guy. for writing average run-of-the-mill web apps

I'm not sure that getting ASP.NET guy up and running and more productive faster is a laudable goal. Say productivity of ASP.NET guy is f(t) where t is time and productivity of guy is g(t). I would submit that there exists some T where g(t) > f(t) for all t > T (t starts at 0, for simplicity.)

That is my stupid way of saying, who gives a crap how long stupid ASP.NET guy takes to get productive? In the long run, inevitably, someone else will be better.

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