Live data from Hacker News

Bitcoin’s Price Falls 12%, to Lowest Value Since May

dealbook.nytimes.com

11–20 of 85 posts

Re: Bitcoin’s Price Falls 12%, to Lowest Value Since May

#11

I don't like the reasons this article gives for the decrease. I mean if regulations had been the cause of this price drop we would have seen this sort of thing happening in July. My best guess is that this is caused by fear-based speculators who were trying to get rich on Bitcoin.

It was almost certainly caused by microstructure of the Bitcoin market: at least two exchanges allowed people to buy Bitcoins on margin, and published widely distributed statistics of how much aggregate margin was outstanding on a day to day basis. It did not take much Excel modeling to figure out the approximate price points for Bitcoin where the exchanges' published margin requirements would trigger cascading margin calls. [+]

If you can predict a cascading margin call in advance, that's tradeable. There is a fairly straightforward way to predict the timing of one.

[+] I'm using a bunch of words here which may not be common hacker jargon, though they're table stakes for trading. Margin is a loan securitized by assets kept with your broker (exchanges, in the Bitcoin world, since they don't separate functions) which allows you to employ "leverage", magnifying the gains if you trade well and the losses if you trade poorly. Margin makes it possible to lose more value than you started out with, something which is not possible when buying instruments like stock or Bitcoins outright. To avoid the problem of traders leaving the broker with the risk in the event of their position getting moved against, brokers do "margin calls", obligating customers to either a) post more collateral or b) liquidate positions involuntarily if their position is moved against in such a way that the equity threatens to go negative. If you're using margin to buy Bitcoins, a margin call forcing liquidation causes you to sell Bitcoins. This will tend to decrease the price of Bitcoins in the next few seconds. Decreasing prices cause other people to hit margin calls. This causes a "margin cascade" feedback loop as the market rapidly de-levers and a lot of over-margined traders lose their shirts.

For an example of someone who correctly predicted this outcome in advance, see the Bitcoin Talk thread entitled "The Bitfinex Credit Bubble Cannot End Well."

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=667105.0

Another example of people correctly picking the outcome in advance would be the surge in BTC swaps (i.e. margin used by people shorting Bitcoin, expressing strong confidence that it will fall in price in the short term) in the 48 hours prior to the flash crashes. (I'm not necessarily saying that those folks intentionally precipitated the margin cascade.)

Re: Bitcoin’s Price Falls 12%, to Lowest Value Since May

#13
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a month or two, 475 dollars will look nice. Based on what? Serious question. When people say this about stocks they are either: 1) pulling it out of their ass.. 2) They have done some quantitative analysis, based on some sort of CFA teachings. I'm assuming you are in camp 1 here. Not that there is anything wrong with a "gut feeling", I"m just not going to invest based on it:) As a question to anyone, what sort o…

Based on the same principles that lead us to think it's ok to pay 2000 for rent when it used to be 200. There is always a new normal. Edit: Why the downvote?

So.. going with camp 1 then, eh?

Re: Bitcoin’s Price Falls 12%, to Lowest Value Since May

#16

This is pretty much a cheap and default comment, but I would be so happy if everybody ( especially websites calling themselves the "DealBook") would start plotting prices on a logarithmic scale.

Why? Highly misleading if you don't know what you're looking at, and of dubious value for prices of most things even if you do.

Re: Bitcoin’s Price Falls 12%, to Lowest Value Since May

#17
post #4

And this is NYT-worthy news?

The bitcoin market is worthwhile $6.3B at the current time so its value is not that negligible and might have an economical impact. NB: I'm saying that "it may have" not that "it has".

Not massively useful, but interested me enough to look it up: $6.3B is more than the market cap of 40 companies in the FTSE 100

Re: Bitcoin’s Price Falls 12%, to Lowest Value Since May

#18

This is pretty much a cheap and default comment, but I would be so happy if everybody ( especially websites calling themselves the "DealBook") would start plotting prices on a logarithmic scale.

Why? Highly misleading if you don't know what you're looking at, and of dubious value for prices of most things even if you do.

A log scale plot shows fluctuations of equal percentage with equal visual size, so it is particularly useful in the case of bitcoin, where you may be interested in comparing price swings at $100 levels and $1 levels.

Eg. A log scale plot shows a $1 to $2 increase as the same vertical hight as a $100 to $200 increase. In a linear scale plot, all you notice is the $100 to $200 increase and the $1 to $2 swing looks like nothing.

Re: Bitcoin’s Price Falls 12%, to Lowest Value Since May

#19

This is pretty much a cheap and default comment, but I would be so happy if everybody ( especially websites calling themselves the "DealBook") would start plotting prices on a logarithmic scale.

Currency exchange rates aren't supposed to need a logarithmic scale. That would be a visual equivalent of burying the lede.

Re: Bitcoin’s Price Falls 12%, to Lowest Value Since May

#20
post #4

And this is NYT-worthy news?

The bitcoin market is worthwhile $6.3B at the current time so its value is not that negligible and might have an economical impact. NB: I'm saying that "it may have" not that "it has".

Assuming every bit coin created still exists is a mistake. Nakamoto might still be in possession of roughly one million bitcoins. But if they where lost then it's a 6.0B commodity.

It might just qualify as part of the S&P 500, but that's not really a major hurdle.

PS: If bitcoin wants to be a stable currency it may be well served by invalidating any wallet without transactions for a long enough period of time aka 10 years. Otherwise, in the long term there is going to be a lot of possibly 'dead' coins which makes reasoning about the market difficult.

Post reply on HN