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KDE Plasma 5

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31–40 of 75 posts

Re: KDE Plasma 5

#31

Am I the only one who lost interest in Desktop Environments ? I'm either satisfied with bare minimum (XFCE/ThunarFM...) or barest minimal (wmii/xmonad...). KDE5 is surely a great piece of tech but I fail to see what's new except for a cleaner KDE4 in terms of UX; these days I feel dom/javascript bear more innovation (maybe too much).

I use XFCE because it's the only one (except KDE which I just never seem to get on with, I dislike the default styling, the button spacings and text spacings always feel inconsistent and cramped and none of the themes seem to help) that allows me to have a taskbar per screen with only windows on that screen in the taskbar.

The others all seem to insist I have one taskbar or even a dock for all 3 screens which is just not how I've worked all the way back to Gnome 2.

Re: KDE Plasma 5

#32
If computers are to aid humanity via 'intelligence amplification', one might suppose that the UI would be a siginificant enabler in this regard. So, one might suppose in a future era, when a lot of work has been done to achieve this, probably much nearer the singularity, there will be UI which are vastly different than today. Will it be a single machine based UI (ie a desktop) or something else?

Re: KDE Plasma 5

#33

Am I the only one who lost interest in Desktop Environments ? I'm either satisfied with bare minimum (XFCE/ThunarFM...) or barest minimal (wmii/xmonad...). KDE5 is surely a great piece of tech but I fail to see what's new except for a cleaner KDE4 in terms of UX; these days I feel dom/javascript bear more innovation (maybe too much).

In the eternal wheel of repetition in IT, we're nearing a complexity peak / inner product effect for D.E. that looks just like the peak I experienced of "doing everything in emacs" around 1990. Modern vim, and other editors, don't really look much like 1990s era emacs.

People will make jokes in the future about current D.E being useful for everything except being a desktop environment, just like the well known jokes about emacs being a great OS, but only so so text editor.

The next rotation of the same wheel will probably be "doing everything in web browser"

currently I mostly use the "vim" of desktops rather than an "emacs" of desktops, I switched from awesome to xmonad a year or two ago, don't remember why.

I have some mythtv front ends that use ratpoison as a WM because at least in the olden days mythtv wouldn't run even in fullscreen unless it was on top of something providing window management, weirdly enough.

Re: KDE Plasma 5

#34
post #26
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gnome doesn't let you switch easily (alt-tab is somewhat bad). Gnome doesn't let you see your apps well (huge waste of space for candy graphics). [and the list with Gnome goes on and on]; KDE doesn't let you launch them easily (yay for ignoring super-key). KDE is super unstable. I'm sure there are caveats with Unity as well. Simply, there is still reason to chose one or the other, these systems are not interchangeabl…

Alt-Tab works perfectly fine for me in Gnome Shell (I was initially annoyed by Alt+` to switch windows within a program group but now I find it useful). I find the app overview also clear and very usable. And it's nice that it's JavaScript-based so I can tweak some minor things easily (hot corner on external monitors). For Unity I'm probably simply not in the target group, I don't like it. I left KDE many years ago b…

  I was initially annoyed by Alt+` to switch windows within a program group but now I find it useful
Oh, you're joking. They will have pinched that one from Apple. I've gotten used to it as well, but it's one of Mac's worst features, and completely opposed to the notion of activities over apps, which I remember was a big thing for Gnome when they were discussing their v3 vision (which at the time I found compelling and is probably best realised today on Windows Mobile).

Personally, I left Gnome because it felt unrefined and designed for a device other than a conventional laptop (i.e. one without a touch screen). I left KDE many years before then because I found the UI too busy, but they seem to have left that behind them so it might be time for me to take another look as well.

Re: KDE Plasma 5

#35
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me the strength of a "DE" lies not so much in the UI elements you list, but in applications working in concert cohesively through conventions imposed by the environment and shared global state. Things like a HIG, shared bookmarks (e.g. filesystem locations), shared context services (e.g. search engines, web accounts, ...), shared behavior settings. You're going to reply "but these things work outside DEs as well"…

I don't use a DE (I use the dwm window manager), but I'm always on the lookout for better ways to use my computer. You make an interesting point about DE development enriching the system as a whole, but that's not an argument for actually using a DE. What can it do for me that's worth devoting the extra gigabyte or so of memory, plus the extra CPU cycles? You mention some things about shared global state, but, as you…

Keep in mind: I wasn't actually trying to convince you to install a DE if you don't want to use one. I'm a KDE upstream developer, and our KDE Frameworks 5 library set explicitly supports writing applications for shell environments other than Plasma (and even other than Linux), and many of the KDE Applications projects care greatly about their audience outside Plasma's userbase as well, including some of my own.

My point was that the DE development and user community has greatly enriched the ecosystem in general, and continues to do so. I'd like it if people who aren't fond of DE UIs (which, again, is fine by me) would acknowledge that more, instead of disparaging DEs as they often do. It shows a lack of understanding of how things work and flow in the greater community. The reality is that your experience outside the DEs would be far poorer today if the DEs didn't exist, because it's been and continues to be the DEs that drive many platform-y developments that enhance applications. Know whose work you rely on and what motivates them.

But of course, I can provide some concrete examples of shared global state popping up in my own workflows:

* The KDE platform has a framework to manage user search engines. You can manage them in System Settings, Plasma's control center application. Many KDE Applications will alow you to select text and hand it off to a search engine from the context menu (along with providing an entry point into the management UI, which can also run outside of System Settings; this takes care of making it work outside Plasma). The Plasma Desktop shell does the same, though, with its Run Command box, which is one keyboard shortcut away, also being aware of search engines and being able to start searches.

* The shell similary exposes things like favorite file system locations, which also pop up in file dialogs and file managers, in Run Command, the launcher, and other places.

* The KDE platform has the best support for international calender systems and calendering data like holiday information available in free software today, and the clock/calendar thingie you can stuff in a Plasma panel reflects those abilities, as do the applications built on the same platform.

And many other little examples broadly in the same vain. As you can see, the pattern is: The platform can do a lot, and there's some benefits to the shell being built on the same platform as the applications, at least for me. That doesn't need to be the same for you; you may interact with your computer in different patterns. You still get to enjoy the applications.

Re: KDE Plasma 5

#36

If computers are to aid humanity via 'intelligence amplification', one might suppose that the UI would be a siginificant enabler in this regard. So, one might suppose in a future era, when a lot of work has been done to achieve this, probably much nearer the singularity, there will be UI which are vastly different than today. Will it be a single machine based UI (ie a desktop) or something else?

There are also "bandwidth" issues not just generic intelligence amplification. May very well end up being a CLI, that certainly is higher bandwidth / lower latency than any sort of GUI.

Also market segmentation. Lets talk Vietnam. You reach the drooling masses with a graphical action movie like "Platoon". You reach the intellectuals with a book like "Fire in the Lake". There is no universal human "right" or "wrong" just different tools.

Given the above paragraph it is highly likely that noobs / non technical people will stick with touch and GUI and productive tech people will stick with somewhat more elaborate CLIs.

Re: KDE Plasma 5

#37

Am I the only one who lost interest in Desktop Environments ? I'm either satisfied with bare minimum (XFCE/ThunarFM...) or barest minimal (wmii/xmonad...). KDE5 is surely a great piece of tech but I fail to see what's new except for a cleaner KDE4 in terms of UX; these days I feel dom/javascript bear more innovation (maybe too much).

A cleaner KDE4 is exactly what I was hoping for for a new update. I'm glad they stuck with what they did well and improved on this. I'm a VFX artist and I actually need the bells and whistles a good DE can offer, but I don't need one that acts like a tablet. In this day and age it seems we have 2 extremes for different uses of computers, but people in multimedia, vfx, 3D, ect... need something like KDE which offers a…

IMO there are roughly 3 kinds of computer users nowadays. Of course these are stereotypes, but I think the simplification helps explain what's been happening with DEs lately.

A: Expert programmers who need nothing more than a browser, a text editor, and a bunch of terminals. They can do everything with the keyboard. They barely even touch the mouse unless it's absolutely necessary. They usually don't care what their DE is, as long as it stays out of their way. Judging from the reaction in this thread, a lot of HNers fall into this category.

B: Power users who spend a lot of time in WYSIWYG applications (graphics, video editing, Excel, etc.), multitask a lot, and make heavy use of the mouse. They know some keyboard shortcuts, but the nature of their work makes the mouse, not the keyboard, their primary method of interacting with the computer. Remember the gal/dude who did all the web design for your last project? Or the team who made that promotional video for you? They probably belong in this group.

C: Casual users who use nothing more than a browser and a music app. Maybe they also use a word processor from time to time, you know, to make garage sale flyers and birthday party invitations. Comic Sans is their best friend, Command Prompt is their worst enemy. They tend to use the mouse more than the keyboard, but both can be easily replaced with a touchscreen. You can usually catch them trying to buy computing devices in the local Wal-Mart.

What's interesting about the situation is that A and C share a lot of preferences despite being at opposite ends of the computer literacy scale. Both groups use only a few apps, so it doesn't really matter how those apps are launched. Both groups can live without a mouse for the most part. Neither group spends much time wandering through menus and settings, A because they don't need to, and C because they don't know how to. This leaves B in the awkward position of heavily depending on the traditional desktop metaphor (icons, menus, toolbars, and most of all, mice).

Unfortunately, A are the ones who make all the DEs, and since C are the largest group, they are the default target users of such DEs. It's easy to target both A and C. You just make a simple, touchscreen-friendly DE where all the advanced functions are hidden behind keyboard shortcuts and/or menually editable configuration files. But while the rest of us fantasize about a "universal" DE that can scale seamlessly from 4" phone to 40" TV, B are stuck in the middle, holding tight to their precious mice and 27" monitor, surrounded by DEs that are so utterly unoptimized for their hardware and daily work.

HUD? Seriously? You want me to take my hand off my lovely plastic rodent and type the name of the menu item that I want to use? Once you imagine yourself in B's shoes, all the backlash against Unity, GNOME 3, and Windows 8 makes perfect sense.

Re: KDE Plasma 5

#38
post #34
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alt-Tab works perfectly fine for me in Gnome Shell (I was initially annoyed by Alt+` to switch windows within a program group but now I find it useful). I find the app overview also clear and very usable. And it's nice that it's JavaScript-based so I can tweak some minor things easily (hot corner on external monitors). For Unity I'm probably simply not in the target group, I don't like it. I left KDE many years ago b…

I was initially annoyed by Alt+` to switch windows within a program group but now I find it useful Oh, you're joking. They will have pinched that one from Apple. I've gotten used to it as well, but it's one of Mac's worst features, and completely opposed to the notion of activities over apps, which I remember was a big thing for Gnome when they were discussing their v3 vision (which at the time I found compelling and…

Well, I never was much concerned about UI/desktop visions and philosophies. Maybe I am missing out on something, I don't know. I like that Gnome Shell goes pretty much out of my way most of the time and works for me without tweaking, without bloat and is intuitive enough (plus I like its rudimentary support of window tiling). I agree with other people commenting here - I simply want to get my work done and don't care much about else, I especially don't care how well it works with touch screens - I don't have any use for that.

On the other hand, the persistent sessions/activities in KDE someone mentioned sound intriguing.

What did you switch to?

Re: KDE Plasma 5

#39

Am I the only one who lost interest in Desktop Environments ? I'm either satisfied with bare minimum (XFCE/ThunarFM...) or barest minimal (wmii/xmonad...). KDE5 is surely a great piece of tech but I fail to see what's new except for a cleaner KDE4 in terms of UX; these days I feel dom/javascript bear more innovation (maybe too much).

Gnome, Unity, KDE. I couldn't care less. They all let me launch apps and switch between them quickly and easily. That's all I need from a desktop environment. I don't understand why people feel so passionate about them.

Its the looks and all the small animations or lack of in many places all over work environment.

KDE is blasting away any other "user interface shell".

If looks didnt matter, stop shaving and getting haircuts, and other pruning activities. KDE is best looking user interface which exists today. And it has just gotten better.

Looking at something like Windows 7 or 8, is vomit inducing.

Re: KDE Plasma 5

#40
post #33

Am I the only one who lost interest in Desktop Environments ? I'm either satisfied with bare minimum (XFCE/ThunarFM...) or barest minimal (wmii/xmonad...). KDE5 is surely a great piece of tech but I fail to see what's new except for a cleaner KDE4 in terms of UX; these days I feel dom/javascript bear more innovation (maybe too much).

In the eternal wheel of repetition in IT, we're nearing a complexity peak / inner product effect for D.E. that looks just like the peak I experienced of "doing everything in emacs" around 1990. Modern vim, and other editors, don't really look much like 1990s era emacs. People will make jokes in the future about current D.E being useful for everything except being a desktop environment, just like the well known jokes…

I use a DE for the same reason I use vi mode in emacs; I have the resources to do it, and there's a bunch of features that I'll probably only use a few times a year, but it's nice to have them there.

I also switched from Arch to Ubuntu because I decided that the control I was losing was worth it to reduce the number of things I had to keep track of.

The beauty of free software is that it's not like one paradigm is being forced down our throats, we can pick and choose. I hope KDE does well for the same reason I hope icewm does well, because more users of free software is a good thing.

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