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Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

outsideonline.com

161–170 of 202 posts

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#161

The fundamental problem with the elementary school system in the west is that kids are given no room for self-direction whatsoever; school for them is de facto a part-time prison or "labor" camp. As a result they are trained by association to dread to that which the system purports to champion: learning, culture, reading, knowledge, even any demonstration of intelligence. It takes a combination of luck, will and posi…

I've got too kids in primary school in the UK, and my experiences are entirely different. They've gone through schools with lovely, kind, nuturing teachers who have instilled an interest in learning. My youngest daughter delights in maths puzzled and writing bizarre and gruesome stories, for which she has been awarded and praised. My eldest daughter as just finished primary and enjoyed all of it (apart from French) a…

Taking luck out of the equation was a primary reason for not sending any of our kids to school.

You are right, you are lucky.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#162

> At the time, my father—who earned his undergraduate degree at Cornell and his master’s at Johns Hopkins Nothing cooler than rich kids taking all their advantages they were given and use them to live like paupers with zero concern for the the world around them. > I can report that Fin and Rye both learned to read and write with essentially zero instruction, albeit when they were about eight years old, a year or so l…

I've got 4 kids, 16-7, none of which have ever been to school. The only thing we require them to do is read and learn. The subjects don't matter. The oldest likes philosophy and science. My 12 year old enjoys video production and 3d animation. My 9 year old really loves comic books and cooking. My 7 year old loves crafts and writing adventure stories.

We unschooled when I was making $10/h.

They all have big groups of friends, with an incredible level of diversity. They spend a lot of time with them, and enjoy unstructured, uninterrupted play.

Beyond that, they all love organized sports, field trips, traveling when we want.

The older children always have the option of going to school, and choose not to.

With regards to learning to read. Our oldest was reading at 4, one read at 9, and the other two around 5/6. It doesn't matter.

Your fear and ignorance is understandable. It's "radical", and certainly not for everybody. The suggestion of "child abuse" is silly, and totally unfounded. I've actually met many of these "clowns", and can attest from experience that you're not only wrong, but out of line.

Experiencing life with our children is wonderful.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#163
We homeschool our children and for a year we tried unschooling. My wife's cousins were all unschooled. There is definitely merit to the approach, although done right (unschooling) it can be much harder for the parent than it looks. Done wrong it can set your children up for a fantastic career barely making ends meet. So at it's worse it's no worse than compulsory public education. We're much bigger fans of alt-schooling (or home schooling as it were).

We've settled on a curriculum of the classics and are part of a home schooling group organized around said curriculum. The kids meet weekly and one of the parents facilitates each year, each "grade" level. Even though there is a "tutor" (facilitator) it requires significant parental involvement.

The most unsettling aspect to alt-schooling in general are the ridiculous things that people say to you. It's not that people are stupid, it's that there is so much they know that just isn't so. It is utterly fruitless to debate the benefits of alt-schooling with people who have not been outside the box. You cannot know how rich, valuable, and academically positive alt-schooling is on average. So you ask questions like, "what about socialization" as if it's a good thing to be in an asylum run by the inmates, or "what about college" as if Harvard doesn't want someone who studied latin from age 7. I digress.

To be fair I feel the need to share my background. I'm a high-school dropout. I subsequently aced the GED, along with the others who took the test with me. I did high school at a "blue ribbon" public school. Everything before that was at a small church-supported private school. We were by no means wealthy, and tuition was as cheap as it could have possibly been. Still my parents both had to work so that we could go. In the private school we did Algebra in the sixth grade, I read at a post-high school reading level in the third grade. It was intellectually stimulating and a wonderful nurturing environment. When I got to public school I found a prison for the mind. The teachers, while seemingly more educated seemed either not to care or to be overwhelmed with things other than teaching. The latter must have been as soul crushing for them as corporate work. It was soul crushing for me to be there. At first I began to advance ahead of my peers. I started taking advanced classes and realized that they were just more of the same mediocrity. At 16 I got a job programming and at 17 I dropped out. The rest, as they say, is history. I now manage a team of over a hundred programmers. I have a passionate hatred of the public education system. I didn't wind up digging ditches and I believe that it is 100% because of my early education experience in that humble little school that was not unlike a homeschool club.

I'm not debating the merits of your public education experience. I'm not saying you wasted your time or didn't come out ok. I'm not saying you aren't a good person or your teachers weren't either. I'm saying it can be better and it's amazing how little effort it can require. Life will not fall apart if you don't take AP Math and join the Key Club.

We've all been told the same lie, work hard in school so you can get good grades so you can go to a good college so you can get a good job so you can work hard so you can become CEO. Alt-schooling can instead prepare one well for the world where "humans need not apply".

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I am clouded by my own positive experiences with school, but I disagree on two levels. Firstly, your use of the phrase 'in the west' implies that outside of the 'west' there is some different, better elementary education system. This has not been my experience in India, where capacity for rote memorization is regarded as equivalent to intelligence from an early age. What countries fit your boundaries of 'the…

>Secondly, school serves as a valuable social and educational center to most children. Even though elementary education is imperfect, it does not mean that a viable solution is to simply do away with it. In fact, I think the social interaction with other children of similar age is extremely important to developing social skills and friendships. Great, let's make primary school a place to park children so their parent…

Thank you for these references, these are all good things to know.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#165
post #147

The author implies that self directly learning is always better than classroom. I can think of examples where this is not true. For example, I know dozens of people who were never formally taught how to touch type on a computer keyboard. Most of them simply learned to type on their own by using the keyboard. They often type with 2 fingers on each hand (index and middle). They get to a level that they feel is "good en…

I taught my younger sister (20 years younger than me) to touch type pretty easily when she was 8. I gave her a keyboard with blank keys and convinced my mom to make sure that was the only keyboard she could use.

Then I pointed her to the BBC typing practice website. She learned in about a month out of necessity.

She's almost 11 now, and she can touch type close to 60 words per minute.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#166
post #101
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I hope the next time you talk to or meet a 16 year old, you don't assume that they lack any ability to understand the "real world". Most 16 year olds in the developed world do lack an ability to understand the "real world" (by that I mean the adult experience) because 16 year olds lack adult responsibility by default. Having a part time job is not the same as working to provide food and shelter for you and your fami…

> In addition, the human brain doesn't fully develop until around 25, so your judgment at 16 is fundamentally flawed. Even if the premise is true, that seems an unreasonable conclusion. On what possible basis could one describe the judgement of a pre-25 brain as "fundamentally flawed"? What makes you consider an old, decrepit, no-longer-developing brain optimal ? "Finished growing" doesn't mean "best", it just means…

Specifically the undeveloped part of the brain, is believed to be the part that evaluates risk. Meaning that 16 year olds are less likely to account accurately for the consequences of their behavior.

There are advantages to this for society and for the individual teenager. But there are disadvantages as well--they are more likely to commit crime, are easier to convince to go off to a foreign land and fight in a war, and take unnecessary risks when driving.

The inability of teenagers to fully comprehend the risks and consequences of their actions leads me to label their judgment "fundamentally flawed."

>When we treat kids as rational beings capable of mature reasoning, they are more likely to act as such.

I agree to an extent. But there are many circumstances where this isn't the case.

In a situation where the consequences of failure won't destroy the life of a teenager and those around him, sure treat him (or her) like an adult. But there are times when parents have to step in, exercise their authority, and protect them (and those around them) from themselves.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#167
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact, I think the social interaction with other children of similar age is extremely important to developing social skills and friendships. But is putting 30 kids together in a room with one adult the right way to do it? I question the belief that school is necessary for socialization. Obviously home school for everyone isn't an option, but there are plenty of studies that show home schooled children turn out ju…

>> "So where is the evidence that socialization in a school environment is necessary" Just anecdotal but might help. I had a younger family member who had to miss a few weeks of school and stay home. After a few days he was itching to get back for the sole reason of social interaction. If you don't go to school you see your friends for maybe 1 hour in the evening. If you go you see them for 20mins on the bus to schoo…

>It's a different experience and one that's hard to replicate.

I agree that it's different and hard to replicate, but again where is the evidence that the school socialization model is actually beneficial--that we need to replicate it? The studies I've seen from home-schooled children seem to suggest that it isn't necessary for a successful productive adult life.

If people are going to argue that homeschooling is detrimental because it doesn't replicate institutionalized socialization, there needs to be some evidence that this kind of socialization is necessary other than "lots of kids do it".

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#168
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The case against abandoning conventional schooling: In developing countries, every month a child goes to school significantly increases final IQ and future earning power. That may be true, but it omits a control group -- a comparison with people who don't attend school. It therefore lacks a scientific basis for comparison. Therefore it's not a "case against abandoning conventional schooling", it is a case where mea…

Controlgroup? I don't think science means what you think it means. The finding that I am referring to is an observational study. There might not have been a "control group" with exactly zero time in school, but plenty of datapoints, and the "dosage effect" is undeniable. That is scientific enough. "Some argue [about cause of ADHD]" reveals that you just quote the scientific method if you want to argue a point, and do…

> Controlgroup? I don't think science means what you think it means.

In human studies, the absence of a control group invalidates the result. This is human studies 101.

As to science meaning what I think it does:

http://arachnoid.com/building_science

> That is scientific enough.

Spoken like a true psychologist. Observational studies without an effort to craft a testable, falsifiable theory, an explanation, for the observations is not science. If this were not so, astrology would be a science.

But since I can anticipate your reply, let me give you an example. Doctor Dubious invents a new treatment for the common cold. His treatment is to shake a dried gourd over the cold sufferer until the patient gets better. Sometimes the treatment takes a week, but it always works — the cold sufferer always recovers. So, why doesn't Doctor Dubious get a Nobel Prize for his breakthrough?

The answer is that the procedure is only a description — shake the gourd, patient recovers — without an explanation, without a basis for actually learning anything or being truthful about the connection between cause and effect. It's the same with psychology.

> What kind of evidence do you need for a "clear conclusion", if you don't accept decades of research, involving hundreds of thousands, if not millions of cases?

One study with a control group and scientific discipline, would be worth thousands of typical psychology studies that don't try to move from description to testable, falsifiable explanation. As it happens, the NIMH has now accepted this view. In a recent policy change, the NIMH has ruled that the DSM, psychology and psychiatry's "bible", may no longer be accepted as the basis for scientific research proposals, on the ground that it has no scientific content:

http://news.sciencemag.org/2013/05/nimh-wont-follow-psychiat...

But, since you think that the quantity of studies make up for their poor quality, will you also defend the many thousands of recovered memory cases on the same ground -- that, since there were so many of them, surely they must refer to something real? And that therefore Beth Rutherford really was raped by her father and forced to abort using a coat hanger -- until the day someone discovered she was a virgin?

Or how about Asperger Syndrome? A few years ago it seemed like a real thing, with thousands of confirmed diagnoses (for those of you who think counting cases makes up for poor discipline). Now, because of indiscipline and widespread abuse, it's been voted out of the DSM and therapists are discouraged from using it.

> There are even successful treatments for it.

Yes, just as there is for the common cold -- see above. If you actually understood science you would realize that ADHD means precisely nothing until a cause is uncovered.

> ADHD has been established as a syndrome, and about as firmly as it gets in medicine.

Compared to a microscope image of a pathogen, followed by development of a vaccine, which either succeeds or fails, in a properly designed study with a control group?

ADHD is located in the vast terrain of unscientific psychology, grouped with things that are discussed but for which there is no solid evidence nor known cause. The NIMH has taken the first step by denying use of the DSM in scientific research. The next step will be advances in neuroscience and the eventual replacement of psychology with neuroscience.

This doesn't say there's nothing to ADHD, or that a real cause might not eventually be uncovered. It says psychologists have no idea what they're talking about.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#169
post #28
post #5

> Everything I learned felt abstract and standardized. It was a conditional knowledge that existed in separation from the richly textured world just beyond the school’s plate-glass windows, which, for all their transparency, felt like the bars of a prison cell. Tell that story to a kid in Africa who has to walk miles to get to school and the school might not have electricity or water and so on. They would say "So, yo…

My school has 1600 students but most of the building doesn't have air conditioning. The school had federal money to install central air conditioning but "borrowed" it to buy iPads for all the students. Then whatever they intended to reimburse the money fell through. (This was illegal.) Somehow a PE teacher manipulated his way to become the Director of Human Resources for the district. He now lives in a million dollar…

I can see how some towns have problems and how there are ridiculous testing requirements.

But I also don't see "let's have kids learn to hunt, grow garlic and carve long bows" as a viable alternative.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#170
post #5

> Everything I learned felt abstract and standardized. It was a conditional knowledge that existed in separation from the richly textured world just beyond the school’s plate-glass windows, which, for all their transparency, felt like the bars of a prison cell. Tell that story to a kid in Africa who has to walk miles to get to school and the school might not have electricity or water and so on. They would say "So, yo…

>Tell that story to a kid in Africa who has to walk miles to get to school and the school might not have electricity or water and so on. They would say "So, you're telling me, you have free transportation to school, teachers, computers in ever classroom, air conditioned rooms, and you choose let your children learn to carve 'beautiful long bows' instead? Why not? Teaching arithmetic appears to be a waste of time at b…

Good point on the arithmetic. Ok let' teach them about patterns and shapes. Let's have them play games. Let's have school field trips to museums, the woods or farms. Let's teach kids about playing together, about negotiating and all those things.

There is a big gap between "well arithmetic doesn't work before 6th grade" and "let have them live in the woods and carve long bows".

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