Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild • Hacker News Board

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#111

Post by bayesianhorse » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 9:13 AM UTC

fchollet wrote: post #13

The fundamental problem with the elementary school system in the west is that kids are given no room for self-direction whatsoever; school for them is de facto a part-time prison or "labor" camp. As a result they are trained by association to dread to that which the system purports to champion: learning, culture, reading, knowledge, even any demonstration of intelligence. It takes a combination of luck, will and posi…

I'm all for making school more fun. But self-direction? Don't forget: these are children. Most (and certainly enough) of them won't have any natural inclination to learn even reading, writing and math. The whole point of having schools is to give an external sense of direction.

I think schools need to be optimized and tuned, but please, please stop these extreme experiments.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#112

Post by ekianjo » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 9:14 AM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #109

ekianjo wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> elementary school system in the west is that kids are given no room for self-direction To be fair this is happening not just in the West. Japan's education system is a disaster in itself which creates kids who stop asking questions after a couple of years. I let you imagine what you end up when they reach the state of adulthood.

It doesn't seem to have hurt the Japanese ability to innovate in technology and culture too much though.

Maybe you missed the fact Japan s economy has been in recession for the past 20 years or so. Its not so much a hotbed of technology anymore. Or if it is, they are clearly failing at making money with it.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#113

Post by k-mcgrady » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 9:21 AM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #71

samirmenon wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I am clouded by my own positive experiences with school, but I disagree on two levels. Firstly, your use of the phrase 'in the west' implies that outside of the 'west' there is some different, better elementary education system. This has not been my experience in India, where capacity for rote memorization is regarded as equivalent to intelligence from an early age. What countries fit your boundaries of 'the…

> In fact, I think the social interaction with other children of similar age is extremely important to developing social skills and friendships. But is putting 30 kids together in a room with one adult the right way to do it? I question the belief that school is necessary for socialization. Obviously home school for everyone isn't an option, but there are plenty of studies that show home schooled children turn out ju…

>> "So where is the evidence that socialization in a school environment is necessary"

Just anecdotal but might help. I had a younger family member who had to miss a few weeks of school and stay home. After a few days he was itching to get back for the sole reason of social interaction. If you don't go to school you see your friends for maybe 1 hour in the evening. If you go you see them for 20mins on the bus to school, in-between classes, 45 mins of recess per day, and the 20 min bus ride home. Not to mention the interaction during group activities or lulls in classes. If everyone was homeschooled there would need to be a substitute for this and suggestions I've seen like "all parents should take their kids to the park for an hour" don' suffice. I think the length of the interaction isn't important, the fact that it happens throughout the day is. Seeing someone for 5 mins an hour every hour is different than seeing them for 1 hour, even if it works out to be less time. It's a different experience and one that's hard to replicate.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#114

Post by glenra » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 9:22 AM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #105

glenra wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One develops reading comprehension by reading , including texts, blogs, and videogame chat - and time spent sitting at a desk being talked at takes away from the time you could be using to do that. Realizing you want to do something that requires basic math gives you a reason to learn basic math, which makes learning that basic math easy . (Me, I learned trigonometry because it was helpful to draw cool patterns on a…

In order to read you need to be exposed to books and also somebody to read with you until you can do it on your own. Since there is no instinctual human drive to seek out books you need to be guided in that direction and encouraged to push through the pain barrier because it's quite boring to start with. This is basically what the job of a teacher is. It may well be true that kids with educated parents can do well in…

> In order to read you need to be exposed to books and also somebody to read with you until you can do it on your own.

That's what parents do. You don't need teachers for that.

You found reading "boring to start with"? That seems sad. Me, I wanted to read almost every minute of every day - I was always in the middle of multiple books, read while walking, read books held secretly under the desk during boring class lectures, even occasionally read while riding my bike. I imagine today kids learn texting and tweeting (or whatever the next thing is) with similar vigor, even if long-form work is starting to lose out a bit to it. Do you really imagine that kids won't be able to read if not for elementary school? We live in a world that is saturated with the written word. It is an inescapable fact of our environment that we are surrounded by text and use text to communicate; it seems crazy to imagine that kids of average or better intelligence would fail to find some incentive to learn to read something. I mean, sure, a priori it seems conceivable that could happen, but it doesn't seem particularly likely and as far as I know that hasn't been the experience of anybody who has pursued unschooling.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#115

Post by jiggy2011 » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 9:24 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #112

jiggy2011 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't seem to have hurt the Japanese ability to innovate in technology and culture too much though.

Maybe you missed the fact Japan s economy has been in recession for the past 20 years or so. Its not so much a hotbed of technology anymore. Or if it is, they are clearly failing at making money with it.

Do you think this is a result of the rigidity of the Japanese education system?

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#116

Post by ekianjo » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 9:26 AM UTC

dredericktatum wrote: post #102

ekianjo wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> elementary school system in the west is that kids are given no room for self-direction To be fair this is happening not just in the West. Japan's education system is a disaster in itself which creates kids who stop asking questions after a couple of years. I let you imagine what you end up when they reach the state of adulthood.

Japan are part of the west. I can't speak for anyone else, but when I say 'the west', I'm not talking about geography. I mean cultures that value economic success above most everything else. Besides, they're only 'west' when the US is on the left side of your projection of the globe. It's a useful and well understood colloquialism so I use it. PS: I'm not saying economy is to blame, but the idea that there's exactly…

Japan is not really part of the West per se. There is still so much cultural legacy at work in the industry and politics, if its part of the West then its a very poor imitation of it. And lets not talk about the place of women in "westernized" Japan, lets not.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#117

Post by lutusp » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 9:28 AM UTC

bayesianhorse wrote: post #110

The case against abandoning conventional schooling: In developing countries, every month a child goes to school significantly increases final IQ and future earning power. You think you have an ADHD epidemic on your hand? Just wait until children who don't have ADHD don't have to learn to sit still and discipline themselves and their emotions.

> The case against abandoning conventional schooling: In developing countries, every month a child goes to school significantly increases final IQ and future earning power.

That may be true, but it omits a control group -- a comparison with people who don't attend school. It therefore lacks a scientific basis for comparison. Therefore it's not a "case against abandoning conventional schooling", it is a case where meaningful science is required to inform public policy.

> Just wait until children who don't have ADHD don't have to learn to sit still and discipline themselves and their emotions.

Some argue that the ADHD epidemic results from the very unnatural conditions in schools, conditions that are barely tolerable to otherwise normal children, and the ADHD diagnosis unjustly shifts responsibility from the oppressive school and educational system to the children.

I'm certainly not saying this is the only explanation, just that no clear conclusion can be made on present evidence.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#118

Post by jiggy2011 » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 9:57 AM UTC

glenra wrote: post #114

jiggy2011 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to read you need to be exposed to books and also somebody to read with you until you can do it on your own. Since there is no instinctual human drive to seek out books you need to be guided in that direction and encouraged to push through the pain barrier because it's quite boring to start with. This is basically what the job of a teacher is. It may well be true that kids with educated parents can do well in…

> In order to read you need to be exposed to books and also somebody to read with you until you can do it on your own. That's what parents do. You don't need teachers for that. You found reading "boring to start with"? That seems sad. Me, I wanted to read almost every minute of every day - I was always in the middle of multiple books, read while walking, read books held secretly under the desk during boring class lec…

I think you're making my point for me. Kids of above average intelligence with the right parents can do well with unschooling, but then they also do well with regular schooling. A kids educational outcome would become linked to that of their parents and other adults in their environment, even more so than is currently the case.

In fact it's worse than that , because as soon as one generation messes up because for example a parent develops a mental health issue there is no mechanism for fixing the next generation.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#119

Post by ekianjo » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 10:05 AM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #115

ekianjo wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you missed the fact Japan s economy has been in recession for the past 20 years or so. Its not so much a hotbed of technology anymore. Or if it is, they are clearly failing at making money with it.

Do you think this is a result of the rigidity of the Japanese education system?

When times are changing it always help to have a fresh look at what you are doing instead of rehashing the same thing over and over again. Japan is not reflecting at all upon that, and yeah, I do think the education system is a huge part of the problem over here. It does not encourage forward thinking at all.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#120

Post by poolpool » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 10:11 AM UTC

samirmenon wrote: post #36

This actually seems astoundingly misguided and dangerous. One of the unique, defining qualities of humanity is an ability to build on the knowledge and experiences of generations before us. Why throw all of the knowledge of the past 5,000 years of human civilization out? When will they learn math, or science, or history? How can you become a lawyer, doctor, or engineer without learning these subjects? Can they really…

You're missing the fact that modern day schools and the education system are a very recent invention. We've done ok in 5000 years without it.