Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#271

Post by georgespencer » Fri, Aug 08, 2014, 10:04 PM UTC

poof131 wrote: post #192

georgespencer wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"action can be taken" Come on. They didn't do anything wrong. They withdrew an offer of employment. 1. It could be performance related, and they just don't want to tell OP, 2. They realised quickly -- shock horror, things change quickly in startups -- that actually they don't need X guy they need Y guy. These things happen. In situations like this you can fire well: give explicit reasons, make sure the person knows y…

They withdrew an offer of employment. They didn't withdraw an offer, they terminated someone who had accepted and was actively working for the company. They didn't do anything wrong. Yes, they did. Is it okay to let the OP go quickly because they made a mistake: no resources to deal with visa issues, wrong domain expertise, etc? Yes. Is it okay to do this without compensation, especially after rescinding other offers…

> They didn't withdraw an offer, they terminated someone who had accepted and was actively working for the company.

You're right. It's even worse for OP: he just got canned.

> Yes, they did. Is it okay to let the OP go quickly because they made a mistake: no resources to deal with visa issues, wrong domain expertise, etc? Yes.

Agreed.

> Is it okay to do this without compensation, especially after rescinding other offers, working his personal network, etc? No!

He took a job, and got fired. Every time you take a job you rescind other offers. Every time you get fired you probably look back and think "damn I wish I'd taken one of those other offers". The proximity is the issue here, and the insinuating that they could have known this earlier / not made the hire in the first place.

> The OP din't just do some code, he worked his professional network and went out on a limb for this startup.

He didn't go out on a limb, he had a job there as you point out. He was a salaried employee.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#272

Post by tptacek » Fri, Aug 08, 2014, 10:14 PM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #242

jowiar wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they can hire and fire you for any reason whenever they want Legally? Sure. Ethically? No. > I'm sure the founders feel it was a good business decision. The next founders who contemplate pulling a cowardly stunt like this shouldn't feel it to be a good business decision. As it stands, this reflects terribly YC and its startups as a whole.

What would reflect worse on YC is them compelling a startup to keep a bad hire who could ultimately cost the business dearly. Hiring for first stage startups is critically important -- ie. it can make or break the company. If the OP wasn't going to work out for any reason, then it was appropriate to cut him loose as soon as possible, instead of dragging it out.

None of this reflects on YC. People on HN have a weird understanding of how much control YC has over portfolio companies --- which, in reality, is practically none whatsoever. YC can't compel startups to do anything. Presumably if they could, they'd compel all the companies to ship earlier.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#273

Post by mark_l_watson » Fri, Aug 08, 2014, 10:15 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #138

[deleted] wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

An employee who was acceptable to the company on X and unacceptable on X + 2 weeks is being asked to shoulder risks equivalent to that of an independent contractor or consultant. Many people enjoy shouldering the many risks associated with parachuting into foreign countries for two weeks to execute engagements with no guarantee that there will be work available on week three. We are customarily compensated for should…

+1 thanks,that is the best comment. I have worked as a consultant for about 15 years, and as a (mostly remote) consultant, being told to take a hike after two weeks would be acceptable (I think; it has not happened to me yet) and a minor inconvenience.

It is so very different however with a hired employee.

I agree that it is not in guybrushT's interests to name the company, but he should definitely send them an email referring him to this Ask HN discussion, just in case they have not seen it yet.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#274

Post by tptacek » Fri, Aug 08, 2014, 10:16 PM UTC

jvagner wrote: post #30

I've been a CTO/CEO and have hired many people over time. Some of this has already been said, but: 1. Those jobs may still be open, reasonable people wouldn't hold taking another job against you. Work is work, and those who step back into discussion with you will show you a reasonableness that you will value more than before. 2. Situations like this is why sign-ing bonuses were invented. If you're COO of anything, yo…

Market signing bonus language rescinds the bonus if the employee is terminated within a year. A signing bonus does not, as a general rule, insure against early termination.

Obviously, everything's negotiable. It doesn't sound like an unreasonable strategy to demand an "insurance bonus" of some sort if you're a high-value employee and the company is pre-revenue, or if your role commits your network to the company, as this person's did when he used his network to sell the company's product.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#275

Post by trmchale » Fri, Aug 08, 2014, 10:26 PM UTC

To me this is really simple. You should tell Hacker News who the company is. An employee has the right to leave whenever he wants and a company can terminate you whenever it wants.

Big companies usually do not fire for no good reason because of liability. Small companies don't have to worry as much because they don't have any money to sue for.

However these "good guys" are establishing their corporate culture now, and we hacker don't want to get dicked over too.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#276

Post by sbhere » Fri, Aug 08, 2014, 10:28 PM UTC

danielweber wrote: post #50

jvagner wrote: post #30

I've been a CTO/CEO and have hired many people over time. Some of this has already been said, but: 1. Those jobs may still be open, reasonable people wouldn't hold taking another job against you. Work is work, and those who step back into discussion with you will show you a reasonableness that you will value more than before. 2. Situations like this is why sign-ing bonuses were invented. If you're COO of anything, yo…

This might be a derail, but what is the normal procedure by which one negotiates for a signing bonus or a severance package? Some sample verbiage would be nice.

Great question; I'm following the responses you get.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#277

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Aug 08, 2014, 11:30 PM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #266

dragonwriter wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you feel they are obligated to pay him for work he did not do? From the account given, he did do work remotely. > may not have even been an official hire with contracts signed. A contract generally doesn't need to be signed to be valid (there are specific exceptions to this, but employment contracts generally aren't exceptions), it can be oral, and, accepting the account given by the OP, offer, acceptance, a…

If the OP did actual work, and was an official hire with either verbal or written contract, then he would have already been compensated for his time. (Otherwise that would be a violation of the law, and I seriously doubt a startup is trying to get away with not paying for work done "on the clock") If the OP did actual work, and was not an official hire with either verbal or written contract, then he was an eager beav…

> If the OP did actual work, and was an official hire with either verbal or written contract, then he would have already been compensated for his time. (Otherwise that would be a violation of the law, and I seriously doubt a startup is trying to get away with not paying for work done "on the clock")

I think that we agree that the startup would be breaking the law. Where we disagree is that you seem to think that "It would be illegal, and therefore it didn't happen" is a valid line of reasoning.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#278

Post by dennisgorelik » Fri, Aug 08, 2014, 11:58 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #272

Alupis wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would reflect worse on YC is them compelling a startup to keep a bad hire who could ultimately cost the business dearly. Hiring for first stage startups is critically important -- ie. it can make or break the company. If the OP wasn't going to work out for any reason, then it was appropriate to cut him loose as soon as possible, instead of dragging it out.

None of this reflects on YC. People on HN have a weird understanding of how much control YC has over portfolio companies --- which, in reality, is practically none whatsoever. YC can't compel startups to do anything. Presumably if they could, they'd compel all the companies to ship earlier.

Do many YC companies still fail to ship early?

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#279

Post by dennisgorelik » Sat, Aug 09, 2014, 12:04 AM UTC

angersock wrote: post #259

justguessingbut wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the YC startup is almost certainly SketchDeck. It's not too difficult to find the OP's real life identity based on his past work. From that, the information on http://angel.co/ pretty much gives it away.

So, the unfortunate thing now is that if it isn't SketchDeck, they're going to have some nasty PR shit to clean up that is totally undeserved. If it is , well, they still need to do cleanup. OP, can you confirm/deny?

I think you overestimate the significance of this discussion.

Besides, there advertisement rarely have negative effect.

I wish my startup was mistakenly confused as a place that fired OP.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#280

Post by angersock » Sat, Aug 09, 2014, 12:22 AM UTC

dennisgorelik wrote: post #279

angersock wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the unfortunate thing now is that if it isn't SketchDeck, they're going to have some nasty PR shit to clean up that is totally undeserved. If it is , well, they still need to do cleanup. OP, can you confirm/deny?

I think you overestimate the significance of this discussion. Besides, there advertisement rarely have negative effect. I wish my startup was mistakenly confused as a place that fired OP.

What's your startup? Might as well link it here. :)