Live data from Hacker News

Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

wired.co.uk

71–80 of 205 posts

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... we still can't make up our > minds as to how wings work, ... Interestingly, I recently spoke to an aerodynamicist and mentioned this, and I was severely lectured. In the follow-up he mellowed a little, but I suspect the "we" in your statement refers to laypersons who don't have advanced training in aeronautics, and yet claim to understand about flow pressure, Bernoulli, etc. I've been convinced that the people…

Does Feynman's "if you can't explain it to a laymen in a few paragraphs then you don't truly understand it" no longer hold?

I'd really like the source for that quote, because it's dumb for obvious reasons, and I don't know Feynman to be dumb.

In fact he said pretty much the opposite to the interviewer asking about magnets in this well known video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO0r930Sn_8

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#72
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell it wouldn't matter what the cause of the apparent effect is. Not requiring reaction mass is what makes it interesting.

What? Of course the apparent affect matters. If the underlying physical principles can be understood, there is a possibility of increasing its efficiency for larger throughput. And if the underlying process isn't understood, there is no way to rule out something that isn't actually producing thrust or some other fluke. Finally, the whole point of science is to discover things. Not make magic :|

I think what he means is even if it turned out to just be thermal energy, then that means this device has the capability of directing thermal energy as a viable proportion source, so its still pretty great : )

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the article points out in 8., there have been previous, independent experiences that support the results.

These were other, earlier experiments, which the current experiment is attempting to duplicate. Importantly, while the new experiment has superficially "confirmed" the previous ones, it shows a much smaller effect. When the magnitude of the observed effect scales roughly with the margin of error of the experiment, one has very good reason to be skeptical ...

The previous tests were on an EmDrive, while the current one was a Cannae drive, which is a related but different design. The EmDrive guy claims the lower thrust is to be expected due to the design difference.

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fluid flow is complicated, true - but the basic physical phenomenon of lift is very simple and completely understood: wings redirect air downwards, and the reaction force is what we call lift.

Agreed, but it's the fluid flow bit that complicates it. We absolutely understand lift in the Newtonian sense of a reaction, but wings, we're still learning about. If we weren't, we wouldn't have developed winglets and other such adaptations, as we slowly but surely assemble the theoretical particles into a coherent whole.

Inventing new engineering solutions to existing problems (e.g. winglets) is totally different from not understanding the situation at all.

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#75

Deep breaths. Probably experimental error. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof... God DAMN this is exciting.

As the article points out in 8., there have been previous, independent experiences that support the results.

The problem with these kind of unusual scientific results is often the experiment itself, not the results. It starts as "we do X, and it has a result of Z, and that makes no sense." Someone usually figures out that it's really "we do X (and Y), and it has a result of Z, and that is completely expected based on Y, and X is irrelevant as expected."

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fluid flow is complicated, true - but the basic physical phenomenon of lift is very simple and completely understood: wings redirect air downwards, and the reaction force is what we call lift.

Agreed, but it's the fluid flow bit that complicates it. We absolutely understand lift in the Newtonian sense of a reaction, but wings, we're still learning about. If we weren't, we wouldn't have developed winglets and other such adaptations, as we slowly but surely assemble the theoretical particles into a coherent whole.

If we weren't, we wouldn't have developed winglets and other such adaptations...

Is the development of new programming languages evidence that we don't "understand" computers? In some very abstract sense, yes, but in a more practical sense - no.

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He seems to be makings some mistakes as well. He says: This is baloney too - but now it's graduate-level baloney. "Quantum vacuum virtual plasma" is something you'd say if you failed a course in quantum field theory and then smoked too much weed. There's no such thing as "virtual plasma". If you want to report experimental results that seem to violate the known laws of physics, fine. But it doesn't help your credibil…

Baez is right, there's no such thing as "virtual plasma". Just Google the phrase.

Isn't that a reference to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#79
A less conservative projection has an advanced drive developing ten times as much thrust for the same power -- this cuts the transit time to Mars to 28 days, and can generally fly around the solar system at will, a true Nasa dream machine.

If we had this plus a reduction of cost-to-orbit by a couple orders of magnitude, say getting prices down to $10 per kilo? Space travel would actually become a thing -- something available to most people. And we could lower cost-to-orbit in a lot of proven ways, like using mass drivers for non-human orbital insertions.

This is firmly in the "too good to be true" category right now, but hell, I'm a believer. Even if we're wrong, even if there's some experimentation error, science still wins. People are being energized, lots of imaginative scenarios about space travel are playing out across the net, and so on.

This is a very good thing.

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#80
Short version:

Unless they believe the machine breaks some of the fundamental physics laws, the device must emit something. With this definition using a red LED Laser powered by a 1.5V battery in the back of the spacecraft is a "no reaction mass" thruster. The problem is that the momentum / energy ratio has theoretical limitations, and they are getting too much momentum.

Long version (based on a previous comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7162069):

I’ll try to explain what I had understood trying to find an explanations that don’t break the physics laws.

To move the spaceship you need momentum. You must use some particles to carry the opposite momentum away. It’s not clear, but the main candidates are photons (aka light). (The other possibility is gravitons, but that would be even more amazing)

The photons have no rest mass, but they have energy. So to produce them, you must "spend" some energy. The energy source can be carried in the ship (a nuclear reactor) or absorbed in place (solar panel).

If you are using a nuclear reactor, a small par of the mass of the atoms is transformed into energy and you put that energy in the photons. So the net effect is that some of the mass of the spaceship goes away, and it's no long a "no reaction mass" ship. (The same idea is valid to electric batteries, but the mass difference comes from the chemical bounds and not from the nucleus.)

If you use a solar panel, then when you absorb the photons the spaceship gains a little of mass. Unless you have a mechanism to dissipate the mass the spaceship would get heavier. Luckily, the photons that you are using for propulsion carry a little of mass (and the heat you are dissipating also helps). So this is essentially a solar sail, you get some photons, and send them in a different direction, and the change in the direction of the photons give some momentum to your ship. Perhaps a complex setup (solar panel + led) can be more directional that a simple setup (mirror). Perhaps you can gain a x3 or x6 efficiency. (But someone has to do the calculations, because this might break the second law, unless you get a laser light and also dissipate some heat without a specific direction, and the net result as good as a mirror.)

In the previous comment, throwaway_yy2Di noted that with photons "the ratio a photon's momentum to energy is fixed at 1/c, which is 3.3E-6 N/kW". The problem of photons is that to get some moment you need a proportional amount of energy to create them. Another possibility is to create particle-antiparticle pairs and accelerate them, but this is even more inefficient that using photon and you get less than 3.3E-6 N/kW.

The alternative solution is to accelerate other particles (for example the hydrogen atoms in the rocket fuel), you don't need energy to create them, because they are already there. So you can get more than 1/c=3.3E-6 N/kW, but it's not a "no reaction mass" ship.

They claim 40 microNewton/28W = 1.4E-3 N/kW ~= 400000/c. This is in the like 400000 times the theoretical limit, so they have a measurement problem (or they'll get a Nobel price).

Post reply on HN