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LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

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Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#81

Post by larrys »

spoondan wrote: post #77
larrys wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I've put in my other comment elsewhere I got hit with a DOL action many years ago. It definitely wasn't willful but we were running afoul of some hidden rule that even some lawyers had never heard of and didn't know about. One employee complained, they investigated and audited, and we got fined and had to pay back wages. I'm not commenting on why or what linkedin did only providing perspective that it can happen f…

I'm curious about your story. Did the employee not complain to management prior to involving DOL? If the employee did, what happened that the employee's complaint was not accurately assessed and resolved? And if the employee did not, do you have an idea of why? I mean these as honest questions. The law is complicated, and it's easy to accidentally run afoul of some provision somewhere while acting in good faith. Outs…

"Did the employee not complain to management prior to involving DOL?"

Definitely not. Was a small company so I would have known.

"And if the employee did not, do you have an idea of why?"

I think they were probably upset about something else. One interesting thing was the DOL office was a mere 2 blocks from our office. Perhaps that played into it.

(More detail in my other reply)

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#82

Post by [deleted] »

jahewson wrote: post #12
krschultz wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some excerpts that help explain it: The FLSA requires that covered, nonexempt employees be paid at least the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour for all hours worked, plus time and one-half their regular hourly rates for hours worked beyond 40 per week. With few exceptions, to be exempt an employee must (a) be paid at least $23,600 per year ($455 per week), and (b) be paid on a salary basis, and also (c) perform e…

Yep, most HN readers are probably exempt due to the "computer employee" exemption: > Computer Employees: Those who work in computer-related occupations, for example computer systems analysts, computer programmers and computer software engineers, are exempt as long as their work involves a combination of primary duties that include applying systems analysis techniques and procedures, consulting with users to determine…

[deleted]

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#83

Post by logicallee »

revelation wrote: post #74
logicallee wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Edited to be less sure.) A third reason might be the argument from market power stemming from the fact that if you can personally create $10 million of cold hard cash value using nothing but a bit of time in front of a computer, and with no long-term detrimental effects on you of any kind, then the fact that you are minting money creates a seller's market (just as there will always be a seller's market for legal cur…

That's such a beautiful poem of an idea. It all comes crashing down once it hits reality at a mere one mile per hour. If you happen to be a tech writer, you are not exempt from overtime pay in California. Why is that, you ask? Are tech writers not minting money using a bit of time in front of a computer? Is there not a sellers market for tech writers? But of course these are all the wrong questions to ask. It is beca…

fair enough. I was just throwing out "any logical reason (if there is one)".

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#84

Post by toehead2000 »

incision wrote: post #70
toehead2000 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of comments like this in this thread, the gist of which being "people who don't demand overtime pay are deluded/stupid/victims of false consciousness/act against their own interest." Pretty much everyone is an at will employee, free to go find another job. Since these exempt positions tend to be high skill, the logic behind these laws is that these kinds of employees don't need this extra layer of gov…

>'They have the wherewithal to go find another employer if they feel they're being treated unfairly.' That completely misses the point. The parent is observing a behavior in the industry as a whole, not a specific employer. Argue that the industry doesn't evidence this or argue that programmers should become plumbers, but boiling it down to 'go find another job' is nonsense in the context of an entire industry demons…

I really don't understand the point you're trying to make here. The parent says that tech industry workers are "deluded" because they think of themselves as part of the "ownership class" rather than the "working class," thus allowing the "fruits of their labor" to be "stolen," so clearly he's talking about the behavior of individuals, albeit en masse. Because they're deluded, they're acting irrationally.

All I'm saying that given the job fluidity within the tech industry as a whole, it is unlikely that individuals are going to allow themselves to be compensated at rates very much less than the value they provide. Having the government force employers and employees to account for their work on an hourly basis, so that their labor is not "stolen," is a restriction on their respective individual freedom. So the other side to the parents argument is that maybe the tech industry as a whole is not deluded, maybe it just wants this freedom.

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#85

Post by roc »

logicallee wrote: post #65
serge2k wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's all the more reason to demand overtime pay.

Yes, to demand it. My point is you can demand whatever you want. (Unlike the cleaning staff, who can "be shown the door if that's how they feel about it.") It's not like being exempt means an employer is not allowed to offer you overtime pay. They can still do it. You can still demand it.

> "Unlike the cleaning staff, who can "be shown the door if that's how they feel about it.""

Cleaning staff are (overwhelmingly) entitled to overtime pay, by law.

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#86

Post by michaelochurch »

ulfw wrote: post #57
Semaphor wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, if you work overtime in the U.S. you do not get compensated for it?

Silicon Valley wouldn't exist if those would be paid. It's one of the small 'perks' of making a 6 digit salary. You work so many unpaid overtime hours that your actual hourly wage isn't THAT high anymore. (especially if you also take only 10 vacation days into account etc)

Silicon Valley wouldn't exist if those would be paid.

If that's the case, then Silicon Valley doesn't deserve to exist.

The only people for whom it's reasonable to expect unpaid overtime are genuine founders with real control over the company and their place in it, and who will get real rewards if it succeeds,

You work so many unpaid overtime hours that your actual hourly wage isn't THAT high anymore.

Maybe you do. Except on projects with direct benefit to your career, it's a waste of time and you'd be better off to stop. You don't get more respect by being a chump. You just get loaded with more grunt work.

You want your bosses to think you have leadership potential, not that you're a hard worker who can be used as a garbage disposal for stuff no one else wants to do, or who will accept abuse downwind of others' mistakes (understaffing, bad planning, etc.)

especially if you also take only 10 vacation days into account

Don't work for shitty companies. Three weeks is the absolute minimum.

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#87

Post by stickydink »

vvvv wrote: post #39
yulaow wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a EU citizen I hoped to see a /s under your post. I do not want to be rude but here it is obvious that if you work overtime you must be compensated and also very well (usually 1,5-2 times more than regular hours). And not only it, in some states, like mine, you can work only a limited amount of hours (6 or 8, I don't remember well) overtime per week, otherwise it is illegal.

In the UK, you typically sign a waiver, which says you may be require to work more than the statutory 37.5 hours per week.

It's 48 hours. You can be legally expected to work anything up to that without overtime pay, as a salaried employee.

And penalties for requiring employees to work over that, apply only when this is exceeded when it's averaged over a 17 week period.

But you're right, many fields pretty much bring up the 48-hour overtime exemption contract to you on day 1, many temp jobs, or things like catering/bar-work require you to sign one of these.

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#88

Post by larrys »

ics wrote: post #80
larrys wrote: post #41

I had this happen to me at a company that I owned in the past. I got the DOL to chop the total amount due in half and then got them to allow us to pay it out over 4 or 5 years. (All without a lawyer btw...) Edit: Reason for downvotes?

Everyone reading this thread would probably appreciate it if you provided more information. Your brevity almost sounds like gloating as it says nothing in regards to the well-being of your employees except that the money that you managed to owe them less than half of what the DOL originally figured. In your other comment, you mentioned "some hidden rule"– what rule? How did you go about resolving it? I expect you cou…

"Your brevity almost sounds like gloating"

Well yes I was bragging. I was pretty proud that I got it cut in half after an attorney told me to just pay the full amount that (he was a labor lawyer) he didn't think they would budge. So yes I was proud that I did that but more importantly wanted to point out that it was possible, at least then in that particular office. In business sometimes just knowing something is possible can enable you to try.

"except that the money that you managed to owe them less than half of what the DOL originally figured"

Well as a business person of course I'm going to try and minimize the dollars owed. But further to the employees it was essentially found money they didn't have an issue (other than the one employee who did apparently) in the first place.

The company was about 20 employees. This happened over the course of a few years. It involved the fact (from memory) that you didn't have to give employees (of this type) any breaks but if you did give them breaks they had to be 15 or 20 minutes (don't remember).

So here is the scenario (for this type of employee).

You work and you don't get any breaks. - Ok says the DOL

You work and you get, say, 20 minutes break. - Ok says the DOL.

You work and you get, say, 15 minutes break. - No says the DOL must be 20 minutes you owe them pay for the 15 minutes they weren't working.

Only thing I don't remember is if it was 15 minutes needed or 20 minutes. The point is we were off by 5 minutes so we owed back pay for that.

So once again breaks weren't required but if you give them they have to be of a certain length. And it had nothing to do with a job description that generally referenced breaks either. No mention was made of breaks when hiring. And they didn't have to take breaks either.

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#89

Post by logicallee »

roc wrote: post #85
logicallee wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, to demand it. My point is you can demand whatever you want. (Unlike the cleaning staff, who can "be shown the door if that's how they feel about it.") It's not like being exempt means an employer is not allowed to offer you overtime pay. They can still do it. You can still demand it.

> "Unlike the cleaning staff, who can "be shown the door if that's how they feel about it."" Cleaning staff are (overwhelmingly) entitled to overtime pay, by law.

yes, that is my point. they're entitled to it precisely because they're not in a position to demand it. (according to this possible logic.)

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#90

Post by jessriedel »

yulaow wrote: post #25
allsystemsgo wrote: post #3

I don't get it. So if I'm working overtime for my employer, a lot, I'm entitled to money? I get that my work after hours is essentially "free" labor. But I wasn't aware that there are actually laws that say salaried employees are entitled to more compensation when working after hours.

As a EU citizen I hoped to see a /s under your post. I do not want to be rude but here it is obvious that if you work overtime you must be compensated and also very well (usually 1,5-2 times more than regular hours). And not only it, in some states, like mine, you can work only a limited amount of hours (6 or 8, I don't remember well) overtime per week, otherwise it is illegal.

Th original link is to a US company operating in the US being investigated for breaking US laws by the US government. This forum is hosted by a US company on US soil and the large majority of readers and commenters work in the US. It's safe to assume that allsystemsgo is talking about US law unless otherwise stated.
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