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In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

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Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#91

Post by walshemj »

pleenq wrote: post #80
walshemj wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the NSA opt out of the GS pay scales? Its a major problem for all technical/scientific civil service jobs. And hiring contractors from Booze ma kidney - has worked out so well for them hasn't it.

The NSA doesn't opt out of pay scales -- all general employees follow the GS pay scale with GS 10 removed (GS 9 promotes to GS 11). For those with a degree in certain fields, they follow an increased pay scale but along the same grade. For instance, someone with an electrical engineering degree would follow the GE pay scale, which still has the same path (GE 9, 11-15) but makes something like 2-10k more per year. The…

Ah I seem to remember an article that said they did probably wired or a similar publication getting the wrong end of the stick.

The UK scientific civil service has similar problems in that for generic management roles they are paid fairly well for high end technical skills not so much.

Even worse once you get into roles for the TLA's - it will end up like the 30's where the only people that the security services could recruit where those with private incomes or ex military on pensions.

Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#92

Post by phaus »

walshemj wrote: post #65
mpyne wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm curious if reservists deemed to have critical skills would be called upon to act beyond an amount comfortable for them, considering that they typically already have full-time day jobs as mentioned in the article. Yes, that is certainly possible. The whole "1 weekend a month, 2 week a year" thing died with the World Trade Center. While Reserve units certainly try to maximize flexibility to try from interfering w…

yes I know quite senior (RSM) people in the UK TA (reserves) who got sent to the gulf for an extended period - though that company does sponsor a TA unit so was fairly cool with it.

>though that company does sponsor a TA unit so was fairly cool with it.

Do they have a choice in the matter? I'm just curious because here in the U.S. companies are obligated to hold your position for you until you get back.

Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#93

Post by sliverstorm »

dm2 wrote: post #81
__john wrote: post #22

So I can off some first hand perspective here. >Do the military "cyberwarriors" even have local admin rights on their machines? We don't, hell I don't even have access to some of the basic tools I need (i.e. version control) >Hackers don't sign up for active duty military. They do, I've met the smartest people I know in the military . The hacker types never stay though they either get kicked out because they don't wa…

Many hackers / security researchers wouldn't mind working for the military but they don't have the desire to go through basic training and learn the things that will be unnecessary to their main job. If I were to join the military right now wanting to work on computer systems, how long would it take before I'm actually preforming that role, or would they have to "break" me first? Hackers have no desire to do that whe…

I thought there already sort of was that kind of pathway. Do Air Force Academy pilots go through boot camp, for example?

Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#94

Post by phaus »

rdl wrote: post #90
phaus wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Doctors and pilots get paid reasonably well by the military. Doctors are officers. This means that they get paid much more than Soldiers, but its still a laughably low amount when you compare it to a civilian doctor's salary. Pilots are also officers. Their salaries are closer to the civilian world, but they are still probably a little low. I don't think the Army is about to convert tens of thousands of IT specialis…

The people I interacted with most were Healthcare Information Systems Officers (70D), who were generally O-2 to O-4. Given that they tended to be fairly early career and living in low cost areas of the country, with college paid, it was a pretty good deal for them. I think flexibility is the real problem with military hiring, not absolute pay levels.

After allowances, they are making about 52-70k depending on which rank they hold. That's not bad for what they do, but if they were actual doctors it would be terrible.

Its also not a technical job in the traditional sense, 70Ds typically spend 8 years as a 70B (Even though a lot of them will be slotted as 70Ds much earlier than this) which is essentially a management position at a medical facility.

From the description of 70D, it could end up being a technical job depending on the particular assignment, but its more oriented towards healthcare management types.

Its not a bad deal at all if you are looking for a way to pay off your student loans.

Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#95

Post by dm2 »

sliverstorm wrote: post #93
dm2 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many hackers / security researchers wouldn't mind working for the military but they don't have the desire to go through basic training and learn the things that will be unnecessary to their main job. If I were to join the military right now wanting to work on computer systems, how long would it take before I'm actually preforming that role, or would they have to "break" me first? Hackers have no desire to do that whe…

I thought there already sort of was that kind of pathway. Do Air Force Academy pilots go through boot camp, for example?

Yes. http://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/air-force-bmt-boot... How much of that is really necessary to be in IT security though? I'm sure it makes you a better person, but when you have highly skilled individuals and show them that kind of requirement, the majority of them would rather stay in the private sector.

The exception is if you have a specialized degree there is officers school for the branches, but basic training is still required, you will still be marching and be broken in, but after that will be more classrooms than physical activities.

Pilots especially must be physically fit. I've heard that leg strength is especially important so that you don't pass out at high g-forces. Drone pilots probably not so much, obviously.

The Reserve forces might be slightly less rigorous, but I'm not positive.

The cyber warfare stuff is mostly Army and Navy though as far as I know.

Agencies like the DHS are the ones that are really struggling to find IT talent. They have a huge amount of responsibility (security all non-military government infrastructure) and have a bad reputation currently (because of airport security staff).

Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#96

Post by walshemj »

phaus wrote: post #92
walshemj wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes I know quite senior (RSM) people in the UK TA (reserves) who got sent to the gulf for an extended period - though that company does sponsor a TA unit so was fairly cool with it.

>though that company does sponsor a TA unit so was fairly cool with it. Do they have a choice in the matter? I'm just curious because here in the U.S. companies are obligated to hold your position for you until you get back.

I think there are sanctions (you are pissing of Liz II) and of course it might effect the senior mangers if their name came up for a gong or other honour.

They have discussed making it mandatory for employers to give paid leave to TA members for annual training.

Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#97

Post by sliverstorm »

dm2 wrote: post #95
sliverstorm wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought there already sort of was that kind of pathway. Do Air Force Academy pilots go through boot camp, for example?

Yes. http://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/air-force-bmt-boot... How much of that is really necessary to be in IT security though? I'm sure it makes you a better person, but when you have highly skilled individuals and show them that kind of requirement, the majority of them would rather stay in the private sector. The exception is if you have a specialized degree there is officers school for the branches, but ba…

Huh. I mean, I knew that pilots need to be fit, I just didn't think they'd be crawling through the mud and such.

Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#98

Post by beagle3 »

VLM wrote: post #76
beagle3 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Company red tape and military culture is nothing alike. The most "conservative" company would have techies that don't meet any customers come in a suit, and those are almost extinct now. In a military, depending on where you are and your rank, you could detention / penalties for not being shaved, not having your shoes shined, having a haircut that's too long by a few centimeters. You often can't take a week (or even…

I've been in .mil and .com and with at will employment at least in the more regulated industries its the same outcomes. Whats really different is the formality level. So if your .com boss decides to fire you for being a dirty hippie, you pretty much get walked out and that's it. More likely they would make up a bunch of B.S. to "prove" your inadequacy so they don't have to pay severance or unemployment claims. In .mi…

I suspect you misunderstood what I wrote: The army can easily discharge you even if you signed up for 3 years, with a variety of ways. However, YOU cannot quit as easily. That's a world of difference.

And re:transferring - that's another thing that's different in the army; The army can transfer you to, say, Iraq, with a couple of days notice, without giving you the ability to refuse. Ever had anything like that happen in your .com days?

Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#99

Post by __john »

dm2 wrote: post #95
sliverstorm wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought there already sort of was that kind of pathway. Do Air Force Academy pilots go through boot camp, for example?

Yes. http://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/air-force-bmt-boot... How much of that is really necessary to be in IT security though? I'm sure it makes you a better person, but when you have highly skilled individuals and show them that kind of requirement, the majority of them would rather stay in the private sector. The exception is if you have a specialized degree there is officers school for the branches, but ba…

I more or less agree just some minor clarifications/nitpicks > Officers got through OTS not BMT > Reserve physical requirements are the same as Active duty requirements > The Air Force's cyber warfare career field is called 1B4[1]

[1] http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/saf_cio_a6/pu...

Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#100

Post by querulous »

phaus wrote: post #94
rdl wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people I interacted with most were Healthcare Information Systems Officers (70D), who were generally O-2 to O-4. Given that they tended to be fairly early career and living in low cost areas of the country, with college paid, it was a pretty good deal for them. I think flexibility is the real problem with military hiring, not absolute pay levels.

After allowances, they are making about 52-70k depending on which rank they hold. That's not bad for what they do, but if they were actual doctors it would be terrible. Its also not a technical job in the traditional sense, 70Ds typically spend 8 years as a 70B (Even though a lot of them will be slotted as 70Ds much earlier than this) which is essentially a management position at a medical facility. From the descript…

if you're a military doctor not only do you save approximately $200k on the cost of your schooling you also far outearn civilian doctors over med school and residency. even top residency programs pay very little. until you make attending (or possibly fellow) you are probably making half of what your peers in the military are making. military doctors earn less for the last 4-6 years of their service but they more than makeup for it over the first 8-10
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