Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

navytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 103 posts

Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#71

Post by wisty »

mullingitover wrote: post #40
phaus wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If we're trying to use uniformed military troops to hack servers remotely, we deserve to lose any 'cyber war.' Not all Soldiers are incompetent. Some of the most brilliant people I've met are people that I met while I was in the Army. China has created numerous units that focus on offensive hacking, and they are wildly successful. Now, to clarify, I'm not saying that we should have troops performing cyber attacks, I…

I mean no disrespect to the soldiery, but why use soldiers for this, and not the DIA/NSA/CIA/various other TLAs? I guess that's what I'm confused about. Grunts wearing camouflage sitting in front of a laptop trying to outbrain someone seems humorously perverse. It's like some high-level bureaucrat has it in his mind that 'cyberattack' necessarily means that the military has to do it, because we obviously use the mili…

The same reason the Army has mechanics to fix their tanks, not some "US Tank Repair Agency".

Also, if you were an officer, how willing would you be to trust a hacker from another agency, if you didn't have someone you trusted to vet their advice?

There'd also be concerns about red tape. If a low ranking officer isn't sure about something, can they put in a tech support ticket to a three letter agency?

Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#72

Post by sailfast »

thefreeman wrote: post #28
__john wrote: post #22

So I can off some first hand perspective here. >Do the military "cyberwarriors" even have local admin rights on their machines? We don't, hell I don't even have access to some of the basic tools I need (i.e. version control) >Hackers don't sign up for active duty military. They do, I've met the smartest people I know in the military . The hacker types never stay though they either get kicked out because they don't wa…

I don't understand how the military cannot afford to compete with the private sector. This is where wars will be won now (or soon). It's pretty important to defend ourselves. And we have trillions of dollars...

I think this is a prime example of how pay scales recruiting policies are very difficult to apply across a multi million person organization. If you change the rules for cyber positions, you must consider changing them for all positions. Rank and pay scales are the same across any GS position and across military ranks at this point - perhaps we should think about paying those with key skills more money, but that argument is extremely tough to implement and get legislated.

Result: "Forget it, let's just hire some contractors."

Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#73

Post by walshemj »

sailfast wrote: post #72
thefreeman wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how the military cannot afford to compete with the private sector. This is where wars will be won now (or soon). It's pretty important to defend ourselves. And we have trillions of dollars...

I think this is a prime example of how pay scales recruiting policies are very difficult to apply across a multi million person organization. If you change the rules for cyber positions, you must consider changing them for all positions. Rank and pay scales are the same across any GS position and across military ranks at this point - perhaps we should think about paying those with key skills more money, but that argu…

Doesn't the NSA opt out of the GS pay scales? Its a major problem for all technical/scientific civil service jobs.

And hiring contractors from Booze ma kidney - has worked out so well for them hasn't it.

Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#74

Post by walshemj »

socceroos wrote: post #58
phaus wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I mean no disrespect to the soldiery, but why use soldiers for this, and not the DIA/NSA/CIA/various other TLAs? I specifically said that I wasn't advocating this as a military mission. I was just stating that if it was a military mission, the Soldiers themselves wouldn't be the reason that it fails. >Grunts wearing camouflage sitting in front of a laptop trying to outbrain someone seems humorously perverse. A grunt…

I guarantee you will not attract the best talent if your vision includes them wearing camouflage.

Nah won't want to be seen dead in standard kit they end to go for northface, Barbour, camper or merrell for boots just the SAD and SAS do.

Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#75

Post by walshemj »

phaus wrote: post #32
thefreeman wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how the military cannot afford to compete with the private sector. This is where wars will be won now (or soon). It's pretty important to defend ourselves. And we have trillions of dollars...

Part of it is that the government doesn't want to, the other part of it is that the American people would shit their pants if they found out that a low-ranking Soldier was making 6 figures a year off of taxpayer money. People resent it when government employees make more money than they do. Also, in the Army, you make the same amount of money no matter what your job is. The people they used to have that were only qua…

But they would not be low ranking soldiers all IT professionals would have to start at officer level - I did work at one ex civil service tech company and our grades still had a mapping to military and civilservice ones.

Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#76

Post by VLM »

beagle3 wrote: post #59
azernik wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In larger tech companies there's plenty of red tape, and some of the best software developers I've seen don't care a lot about ego. People I've heard talk about public sector work (never heard any talk about military software security work) complain more about cultures where there are too many incentives to focus on the narrow mission of your own organizational subunit, and little feeling of (or decision-making with…

Company red tape and military culture is nothing alike. The most "conservative" company would have techies that don't meet any customers come in a suit, and those are almost extinct now. In a military, depending on where you are and your rank, you could detention / penalties for not being shaved, not having your shoes shined, having a haircut that's too long by a few centimeters. You often can't take a week (or even…

I've been in .mil and .com and with at will employment at least in the more regulated industries its the same outcomes. Whats really different is the formality level.

So if your .com boss decides to fire you for being a dirty hippie, you pretty much get walked out and that's it. More likely they would make up a bunch of B.S. to "prove" your inadequacy so they don't have to pay severance or unemployment claims.

In .mil its surprisingly similar but much more formal. UCMJ article 15 punishments, some written formal counseling, courtmartial trial, yes you can get downsized in the .mil by reorgs making your slot coincidentally happen to disappear, its all very complicated and ritualistic but basically does the same thing as .com.

You only go to jail in .mil if you more or less want to. There are always alternatives that are generally easier than "just say no". Its vaguely similar to .com life in that telling your boss "no" is much more likely to get you fired than explaining "yes, but ...". Along with the traditional homer simpson move of just go to work and retire in place or monkey wrench stuff.

One difference is transferring is much easier and much more uniform in .mil if you have a bad boss than in .com where that may range from no-problemo to impossible without a career death penalty being assessed but usually on average much harder in .com world.

Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#77

Post by HNJohnC »

thefreeman wrote: post #28
__john wrote: post #22

So I can off some first hand perspective here. >Do the military "cyberwarriors" even have local admin rights on their machines? We don't, hell I don't even have access to some of the basic tools I need (i.e. version control) >Hackers don't sign up for active duty military. They do, I've met the smartest people I know in the military . The hacker types never stay though they either get kicked out because they don't wa…

I don't understand how the military cannot afford to compete with the private sector. This is where wars will be won now (or soon). It's pretty important to defend ourselves. And we have trillions of dollars...

Yeah, "defend" right....

Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#78

Post by sailfast »

walshemj wrote: post #73
sailfast wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a prime example of how pay scales recruiting policies are very difficult to apply across a multi million person organization. If you change the rules for cyber positions, you must consider changing them for all positions. Rank and pay scales are the same across any GS position and across military ranks at this point - perhaps we should think about paying those with key skills more money, but that argu…

Doesn't the NSA opt out of the GS pay scales? Its a major problem for all technical/scientific civil service jobs. And hiring contractors from Booze ma kidney - has worked out so well for them hasn't it.

It's difficult to "opt out" of GS pay scales, and even then if you do you then have to follow different recruiting patterns and are subject to fairly strict guidelines. They do have special scales for special positions, but from what I understand that takes awhile to establish and still has strict guidelines. (http://apps.opm.gov/SpecialRates/2014/index.aspx)

Federal recruiting can be quite a minefield, which is a significant problem in fast-moving professions. According to this article the NSA don't opt out of the GS scale, but that's not to say they don't offer temporary positions with slightly different criteria: http://work.chron.com/nsa-pay-scale-16399.html

I'm unsure if it's different on the military side but typically that pay / Basic allowance for housing / etc is also clearly defined in advance.

Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#79

Post by s_q_b »

mullingitover wrote: post #40
phaus wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If we're trying to use uniformed military troops to hack servers remotely, we deserve to lose any 'cyber war.' Not all Soldiers are incompetent. Some of the most brilliant people I've met are people that I met while I was in the Army. China has created numerous units that focus on offensive hacking, and they are wildly successful. Now, to clarify, I'm not saying that we should have troops performing cyber attacks, I…

I mean no disrespect to the soldiery, but why use soldiers for this, and not the DIA/NSA/CIA/various other TLAs? I guess that's what I'm confused about. Grunts wearing camouflage sitting in front of a laptop trying to outbrain someone seems humorously perverse. It's like some high-level bureaucrat has it in his mind that 'cyberattack' necessarily means that the military has to do it, because we obviously use the mili…

US Cyber Command, the main elite military cyberwarfare unit, is under the joint leadership of the NSA director. What they're doing now is moving the techniques "down-market" so that ordinary units have cyber capabilities as well. Think JSOC vs. regular infantry. You need both to be effective.

Amusing side note, the MD5 hash of CYBERCOM's mission statement, "9ec4c12949a4f31474f299058ce2b22a", is to my knowledge the only hash emblazoned on an agency seal.

Re: In secret cyberwar game, reservist techies pummel miltary cyberwarriors

#80

Post by pleenq »

walshemj wrote: post #73
sailfast wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a prime example of how pay scales recruiting policies are very difficult to apply across a multi million person organization. If you change the rules for cyber positions, you must consider changing them for all positions. Rank and pay scales are the same across any GS position and across military ranks at this point - perhaps we should think about paying those with key skills more money, but that argu…

Doesn't the NSA opt out of the GS pay scales? Its a major problem for all technical/scientific civil service jobs. And hiring contractors from Booze ma kidney - has worked out so well for them hasn't it.

The NSA doesn't opt out of pay scales -- all general employees follow the GS pay scale with GS 10 removed (GS 9 promotes to GS 11). For those with a degree in certain fields, they follow an increased pay scale but along the same grade. For instance, someone with an electrical engineering degree would follow the GE pay scale, which still has the same path (GE 9, 11-15) but makes something like 2-10k more per year.

The biggest difference, is that their promotion structure is split into two parts: there is a technical route to promotion and an administrative route. This means that you can either be good at being in charge of people and get promoted (administrative), or just be good at what you do (technical). It leads to interesting situations where a GS12 is put in charge of divisions comprising GS15 veterans of 20 years experience, but all in all it is by far the best government run organization I've worked for.

Post reply on HN