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Israel spied on John Kerry during peace effort – report

theguardian.com

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Re: Israel spied on John Kerry during peace effort – report

#11

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

dragontamer wrote: post #9
zvanness wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very good point. It seems to be that they pump in millions to our politicians and get back billions. Millions to billions scheme that ends up causing us a world of headache.

Russia, UK, Israel, every country has lobbyists in the US. This isn't a problem with their countries, its a problem with our country. Democracy is extremely open to infiltration. Getting rid of Israel won't stop the Russian or Chinese spies who are also lobbying our politicians. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/fbi-10-russian-spies-arrested-in... http://www.publicintegrity.org/2005/09/13/6554/china-steps-i... Deal with it…

There is no Russian or British lobby even remotely comparable to the Israeli lobby. Its not an issue of "all sides do it", its an issue of "this country has an outsized influence in American politics not comparable to any other country."

No one wants to be seen as tough on Israel, because its strongest supports have equated criticizing Israel with anti-Judaism.

Re: Israel spied on John Kerry during peace effort – report

#12

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

dragontamer wrote: post #8
zvanness wrote: post #3

I'm most likley going to be down-voted into oblivion and called "anti-semetic" even though i'm half semitc. A really serious question, why is it our job to continue to support Israel? They continue to humiliate John Kerry and Obama. It seems like a one sided deal. We continue to give them whatever they want. And we get absolutely nothing back in return. --- Edit: Hmm, I wonder why this post was shot down so fast.

Because we are getting things back in return. Israel is a nuclear state with good relations with us. US has weapons contracts which help defend Israel... one of the very very few countries that the US exports to. Culturally and historically, the state of Israel was established by the Allies post WW2. So there is a moral obligation as well for the Allies (US, France, UK, etc. etc.) to watch out for what Israel does to…

Or, alternatively, they are an outpost of European colonialism, which the US should in no means be obligated to defend. Edited to Add: The idea of Zionism was a product of late 19th century colonialism. Hence a lot of pre-WW2 immigration to Palestine was from Europe. I don't think a lot of those early immigrants gave much consideration to the people already living there who weren't Jewish

Re: Israel spied on John Kerry during peace effort – report

#13

Post by dragontamer »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #12
dragontamer wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we are getting things back in return. Israel is a nuclear state with good relations with us. US has weapons contracts which help defend Israel... one of the very very few countries that the US exports to. Culturally and historically, the state of Israel was established by the Allies post WW2. So there is a moral obligation as well for the Allies (US, France, UK, etc. etc.) to watch out for what Israel does to…

Or, alternatively, they are an outpost of European colonialism, which the US should in no means be obligated to defend. Edited to Add: The idea of Zionism was a product of late 19th century colonialism. Hence a lot of pre-WW2 immigration to Palestine was from Europe. I don't think a lot of those early immigrants gave much consideration to the people already living there who weren't Jewish

So you're the type to not care about historical or cultural connections between countries. I understand that.

But I have there a multi-pronged argument. Please address the other issues if you actually want a serious response. My post wasn't very long, and its such a shame that you were only able to read a subset of it.

Re: Israel spied on John Kerry during peace effort – report

#14

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

dragontamer wrote: post #8
zvanness wrote: post #3

I'm most likley going to be down-voted into oblivion and called "anti-semetic" even though i'm half semitc. A really serious question, why is it our job to continue to support Israel? They continue to humiliate John Kerry and Obama. It seems like a one sided deal. We continue to give them whatever they want. And we get absolutely nothing back in return. --- Edit: Hmm, I wonder why this post was shot down so fast.

Because we are getting things back in return. Israel is a nuclear state with good relations with us. US has weapons contracts which help defend Israel... one of the very very few countries that the US exports to. Culturally and historically, the state of Israel was established by the Allies post WW2. So there is a moral obligation as well for the Allies (US, France, UK, etc. etc.) to watch out for what Israel does to…

"Culturally and historically, the state of Israel was established by the Allies post WW2." Is demonstrably not true. A substantial amount of immigration was the product of the late 19th century Zionist movement. Ever hear of the Balfour declaration?

If Israel is ever in danger of being destroyed, they will undoubtedly use their Sampson option, and probably just nuke the rest of the Middle East (possibly some of Europe as well, and undoubtedly Mecca and Medina). That's not the kind of Western values I support.

Re: Israel spied on John Kerry during peace effort – report

#15

Post by dragontamer »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #14
dragontamer wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we are getting things back in return. Israel is a nuclear state with good relations with us. US has weapons contracts which help defend Israel... one of the very very few countries that the US exports to. Culturally and historically, the state of Israel was established by the Allies post WW2. So there is a moral obligation as well for the Allies (US, France, UK, etc. etc.) to watch out for what Israel does to…

"Culturally and historically, the state of Israel was established by the Allies post WW2." Is demonstrably not true. A substantial amount of immigration was the product of the late 19th century Zionist movement. Ever hear of the Balfour declaration? If Israel is ever in danger of being destroyed, they will undoubtedly use their Sampson option, and probably just nuke the rest of the Middle East (possibly some of Europ…

Strike Two. You take another swipe, and you cannot divert your attention away from a specific word that I used in my original post. Classic Conspiracy Theorist: you have an inability to read my entire post and address my more powerful points. Instead, you focus on the points that cause you the most emotional response.

Lemme help focus your attention... Please address this point. Between Israel and the US, who do you think will ISIS attack first?

Anyone with a map can tell you that Israel is far closer and far more of a threat to ISIS than the US right now (especially with our "hands off" approach to Syria and Iraq).

Israel takes the flak from a lot of militant extremists, so we don't have to. Its a practical arrangement.

Re: Israel spied on John Kerry during peace effort – report

#16

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

dragontamer wrote: post #15
ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Culturally and historically, the state of Israel was established by the Allies post WW2." Is demonstrably not true. A substantial amount of immigration was the product of the late 19th century Zionist movement. Ever hear of the Balfour declaration? If Israel is ever in danger of being destroyed, they will undoubtedly use their Sampson option, and probably just nuke the rest of the Middle East (possibly some of Europ…

Strike Two. You take another swipe, and you cannot divert your attention away from a specific word that I used in my original post. Classic Conspiracy Theorist: you have an inability to read my entire post and address my more powerful points. Instead, you focus on the points that cause you the most emotional response. Lemme help focus your attention... Please address this point. Between Israel and the US, who do you…

"Between Israel and the US, who do you think will ISIS attack first?"

You really think ISIS will ever attack the US? In what manner? Though I suppose it'd be blowback from invading Iraq in the first place.

Israel and the US mess up the Middle East, then proclaim its our sovereign right to mess it up some more.

Re: Israel spied on John Kerry during peace effort – report

#17

Post by dragontamer »

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #16
dragontamer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strike Two. You take another swipe, and you cannot divert your attention away from a specific word that I used in my original post. Classic Conspiracy Theorist: you have an inability to read my entire post and address my more powerful points. Instead, you focus on the points that cause you the most emotional response. Lemme help focus your attention... Please address this point. Between Israel and the US, who do you…

"Between Israel and the US, who do you think will ISIS attack first?" You really think ISIS will ever attack the US? In what manner? Though I suppose it'd be blowback from invading Iraq in the first place. Israel and the US mess up the Middle East, then proclaim its our sovereign right to mess it up some more.

ISIS is an offshoot of Al Qaeda. They will be able to attack us in a similar manner as the Boston Marathon attack. If a 9/11 style infiltration of this country were to happen, they would easily affect us in that manner.

I'd rather not discuss how I'd attack the US. But needless to say, we are quite vulnerable to a smaller-scale 9/11 style attack, where foreigners invade us and plant bombs at mundane locations. There are plenty of festivals, infrastructure, and gatherings that are vulnerable in the US to another "Boston Marathon" massacre.

And unlike Boston, the majority of places in the US don't have simultaneous access to six world-class hospitals + highly-educated medical population to care for the wounded. Keep that in mind, the casualties number was low because Boston hospitals were so close and world-class in their care abilities.

In most cities, random dudes on the street wouldn't know to pinch specific arteries to save your life. Boston was a unique place with medical know-how and lots of highly-trained medical response at the ready.

http://www.vosizneias.com/128409/2013/04/16/unlikely-hero-in...

If such an attack happened anywhere else, I guarantee you that more people would have died / been injured.

Re: Israel spied on John Kerry during peace effort – report

#18

Post by digitalzombie »

dragontamer wrote: post #8
zvanness wrote: post #3

I'm most likley going to be down-voted into oblivion and called "anti-semetic" even though i'm half semitc. A really serious question, why is it our job to continue to support Israel? They continue to humiliate John Kerry and Obama. It seems like a one sided deal. We continue to give them whatever they want. And we get absolutely nothing back in return. --- Edit: Hmm, I wonder why this post was shot down so fast.

Because we are getting things back in return. Israel is a nuclear state with good relations with us. US has weapons contracts which help defend Israel... one of the very very few countries that the US exports to. Culturally and historically, the state of Israel was established by the Allies post WW2. So there is a moral obligation as well for the Allies (US, France, UK, etc. etc.) to watch out for what Israel does to…

> Israel is a nuclear state

They've never confirm this, only that it is believe that Israel possess nuclear weapons.

> Culturally and historically, the state of Israel was established by the Allies post WW2. So there is a moral obligation as well for the Allies (US, France, UK, etc. etc.) to watch out for what Israel does today.

There shouldn't be any morale obligation at all when they, the Jewish people chose the spot to become Israel. We, USA, didn't assign it for them. US, historically, didn't even care about Israel when they were attacked, the British were the only one that really back them up. US ties between Israel are more powerful later on, so this statement is false in term of morality.

> Ultimately, Israel is a bastion for Western values in the middle east.

And yet they are condemn by the majority in the UN except for USA veto.

> Do you think ISIS will be more concerned with Israel (who have a military within marching distance), or with Europeans / Americans that they've sworn to destroy half-way around the world? Who will they attack first?

Total fantasy. This fantasy is also fear mongering, in term of "what ifs". Even if this fantasy come true, you don't think Nato or those US carriers that are station nearby isn't going to bomb them like Korsovo?

And how smart are they to operate nuclear weapons? How long will it take them to learn how to use it?

> Besides, if Israel falls, their nuclear stockpile will cause some major issues.

Once again fear mongering.

Let's look at it this way, they got nuclear weapon, so they got a free pass for their horrible behavior against USA? The President and John Kerry?

Re: Israel spied on John Kerry during peace effort – report

#19

Post by dragontamer »

digitalzombie wrote: post #18
dragontamer wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we are getting things back in return. Israel is a nuclear state with good relations with us. US has weapons contracts which help defend Israel... one of the very very few countries that the US exports to. Culturally and historically, the state of Israel was established by the Allies post WW2. So there is a moral obligation as well for the Allies (US, France, UK, etc. etc.) to watch out for what Israel does to…

> Israel is a nuclear state They've never confirm this, only that it is believe that Israel possess nuclear weapons. > Culturally and historically, the state of Israel was established by the Allies post WW2. So there is a moral obligation as well for the Allies (US, France, UK, etc. etc.) to watch out for what Israel does today. There shouldn't be any morale obligation at all when they, the Jewish people chose the sp…

I appreciate your serious response.

    Let's look at it this way, they got nuclear weapon, so they got a free pass for their horrible behavior against USA? The President and John Kerry?
It isn't horrible behavior. It is standard behavior that has been going on since the dawn of Israel. We catch their spies all the time, and they catch our spies all the time.

US / Israel relations are funny like that. We don't really trust each other, but we both need each other.

Re: Israel spied on John Kerry during peace effort – report

#20

Post by nayefc »

zvanness wrote: post #3

I'm most likley going to be down-voted into oblivion and called "anti-semetic" even though i'm half semitc. A really serious question, why is it our job to continue to support Israel? They continue to humiliate John Kerry and Obama. It seems like a one sided deal. We continue to give them whatever they want. And we get absolutely nothing back in return. --- Edit: Hmm, I wonder why this post was shot down so fast.

Check http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U-S-Foreign-Policy/dp/037... More on the book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Fore...
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