Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory • Hacker News Board

Re: Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

#41

Post by mseebach » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 12:47 PM UTC

davman wrote: post #22

C7E0F338E42448 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

where do you live, where owning an electric car in your lifetime seem like a distant dream? and why do you want to own one so badly?

Well I live in the UK, I've specced out a mid range Model S with a few optional extras so this comes in at £67000. Lets assume by some miracle I manage to save up a £7000 deposit, this leaves me with some £60000 to find. At a quick google around its pretty hard to get car finance over £25000, but lets have a crack at it and try autotrader. They'll only let me borrow £50k over 60 months which gives me monthly payments…

That's like saying "I badly want to own a car in my lifetime", then speccing out a brand new Range Rover (think Escalade if you're american) and deciding it's impossible.

The Vauxhall Ampera is £29k, you can get a used 2012 Chevy Volt from around £17k.

I'm not sure how the limited lifetime of batteries will affect the used car economy, but the kind of people who buys a brand new Model S generally aren't keen on driving 10 year old cars.

Re: Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

#42

Post by twoodfin » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 12:51 PM UTC

ksec wrote: post #17

Again as with my previous response, I still dont get why the need for a Gigafactory. Battery Industry are an extremely automated, high volume market and with profit margin in single digit. Cutting those off aren't going to automatically made electric cars affordable. Unless Telsa and Panasonic has jointly developed an revolutionary battery that is going to need some funding and mass produced. But any new battery will…

This is perhaps too cynical, but it's to Tesla's advantage to be supporting as many workers in the United States as possible. They benefit tremendously from wide array of state and federal incentives, and having jobs directly depending on the continuation of those incentives makes them politically more likely to continue.

Re: Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

#43

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 12:51 PM UTC

julianpye wrote: post #35

This is very significant for Panasonic's new direction. They now partner with a startup that takes on a IPR policy radically different from the Panasonic of the past. Panasonic's R&D engineers used to be measured internally by the amount of patents filed and the company had a large presence in every significant patent pool. In addition it means that one of Panasonic's key manufacturing expertise will be located overs…

> which is also a radical departure to the mindset of keeping core manufacturing as 'black boxes' in Japan.

I saw some of this up close recently and it was quite interesting how Japan was still 'fighting the last war' in this sense.

They were trying to avoid a repetition of Japanese companies doing an end-run around American and European companies by doing their manufacturing and then turning around to innovate on the processes and principles in the end resulting in a wholly new industrial base.

But the world has long moved on from that time and even though there is plenty of innovation in this sphere the threat of a manufacturer turning into a competitor is still present (for instance, in China) but between the US, the EU and Japan that threat is all but non-existent.

Japanese companies are slowly coming around on this and are becoming more free with respect to sharing technology and IP with other partners. This Panasonic move is another step in that direction.

Re: Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

#44

Post by davman » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 1:16 PM UTC

mseebach wrote: post #41

davman wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I live in the UK, I've specced out a mid range Model S with a few optional extras so this comes in at £67000. Lets assume by some miracle I manage to save up a £7000 deposit, this leaves me with some £60000 to find. At a quick google around its pretty hard to get car finance over £25000, but lets have a crack at it and try autotrader. They'll only let me borrow £50k over 60 months which gives me monthly payments…

That's like saying "I badly want to own a car in my lifetime", then speccing out a brand new Range Rover (think Escalade if you're american) and deciding it's impossible. The Vauxhall Ampera is £29k, you can get a used 2012 Chevy Volt from around £17k. I'm not sure how the limited lifetime of batteries will affect the used car economy, but the kind of people who buys a brand new Model S generally aren't keen on drivi…

I briefly considered hybrids, but the question was concerning an 'electric car', and I don't really feel like hybrids fit the brief.

Like I said, this might all change with the Model 3, and I genuinely hope it does. I'm tired of driving petrol dependent cars, and I want my next new-car purchase to be fully electric.

Re: Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

#45

Post by Shivetya » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 1:25 PM UTC

pptr1 wrote: post #28

This just shows me that Tesla is able to execute. The Gigafactory, opening up patents, rapidly growing charger network, and the eventual $35k Gen III tells me they have tons of potential in the future. Tesla is thinking big. They want everyone in the world to eventually have a electric car. I think they will own a significant share of premium market after they release the Gen III. However, they will be cars that peop…

Okay, but when does the factory first come online? The projections are for by 2020, so where do any possible cost savings for the III come from? Unless we can expect it to slip a few more years like the X did.

I am hoping for a 200 mile range mid size, but I doubt Tesla will be first. I am also expecting range extender vehicles to have much more popularity initially because to be honest, I don't have time for 30 minute charge cycles when I am on trip and most people I know just want to get to their destination.

Re: Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

#46

Post by mseebach » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 1:29 PM UTC

davman wrote: post #44

mseebach wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying "I badly want to own a car in my lifetime", then speccing out a brand new Range Rover (think Escalade if you're american) and deciding it's impossible. The Vauxhall Ampera is £29k, you can get a used 2012 Chevy Volt from around £17k. I'm not sure how the limited lifetime of batteries will affect the used car economy, but the kind of people who buys a brand new Model S generally aren't keen on drivi…

I briefly considered hybrids, but the question was concerning an 'electric car', and I don't really feel like hybrids fit the brief. Like I said, this might all change with the Model 3, and I genuinely hope it does. I'm tired of driving petrol dependent cars, and I want my next new-car purchase to be fully electric.

How about that, I actually thought the Ampera was a full electric, but they've thrown in a small combustion engine. They hide it well in the specs, though.

Edit: You could always get a G-Wiz. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REVAi

Re: Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

#47

Post by Retric » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 1:31 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #13

Kayou wrote: post #6

Why are most of the lithium cells cylindrical, while most of our devices are cuboid? (I think of phones, laptops, external battries... but phones and most laptops have flat lithium cells nowadays). Is cylindrical less expensive? Is it more secure? It seems like a waste of space to me.

It's an efficiency matter. The cylinder gives good electrode surface relative to the amount of matter contained. For a cube that ratio would be much worse, for a sphere it would be optimal, but spheres are harder to manufacture and connect to, as well as harder to stack in arrays. So we take a medium between the sphere and the cube and end up with a sweet spot in the cylindrical shape.

Why not stack flat plates like a car battery?

Re: Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

#48

Post by C7E0F338E42448 » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 1:32 PM UTC

davman wrote: post #44

mseebach wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying "I badly want to own a car in my lifetime", then speccing out a brand new Range Rover (think Escalade if you're american) and deciding it's impossible. The Vauxhall Ampera is £29k, you can get a used 2012 Chevy Volt from around £17k. I'm not sure how the limited lifetime of batteries will affect the used car economy, but the kind of people who buys a brand new Model S generally aren't keen on drivi…

I briefly considered hybrids, but the question was concerning an 'electric car', and I don't really feel like hybrids fit the brief. Like I said, this might all change with the Model 3, and I genuinely hope it does. I'm tired of driving petrol dependent cars, and I want my next new-car purchase to be fully electric.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/search/used/cars/postcode/l331ze...

Re: Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

#49

Post by DiabloD3 » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 1:36 PM UTC

celticninja wrote: post #34

martin_bech wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im going to repeat myself.. They are going to do to alot of car manufactures, the same thing Apple did to Nokia and Blackberry..

Is that to "F them in the A"?

I feel this comment is getting downvoted, not because it is wrong, but because it is crude. I actually hope Tesla "Fs them in the A", because the entire industry has sat on its laurels for pretty much 20 years. Instead of innovating, they have been, essentially, polishing a turd.

Re: Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

#50

Post by davman » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 1:37 PM UTC

C7E0F338E42448 wrote: post #48

davman wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I briefly considered hybrids, but the question was concerning an 'electric car', and I don't really feel like hybrids fit the brief. Like I said, this might all change with the Model 3, and I genuinely hope it does. I'm tired of driving petrol dependent cars, and I want my next new-car purchase to be fully electric.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/search/used/cars/postcode/l331ze...

I need to do more research on the Leaf but yeah that is a close contender.

The Zoe is a problem. I love Renault cars, my Clio was my favourite thing in the world, but the Zoe has DRM in the battery which you have to rent from Renault for a fee based on your mileage, which as far as I could tell, worked out to more than I would pay in petrol.

I believe, although it may have been FUD, that if you go over the mileage you have pre-arranged with Renault, they will disable your battery remotely.