Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill • Hacker News Board

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#91

Post by ams6110 » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 1:23 AM UTC

mangecoeur wrote: post #28

lutorm wrote: post #17

This is why changing out incandescents for CFL's in a heated house does almost nothing for saving energy... and if the heat comes from electricity, nothing for saving money, either.

Wrong. Does plenty to save energy. Reasons: - for half the year, you don't heat but you still light, so you automatically gain savings for that whole period. (also if you have air conditioning, in summer you heat the house with lights then have to cool the air again) - Lights are on the ceiling. Hot air rises. Therefore heat coming from lights does almost nothing to improve your thermal comfort. - If you are heating…

What's the energy cost of making a CFL bulb vs. an incandescent? Also since in practice they don't last a lot longer, and are annoyingly dim for the first few minutes, and are considered an hazardous waste when you need to dispose of them, why does it make sense to replace a $0.50 bulb that has none of those issues with a $5.00 bulb that does?

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#92

Post by XorNot » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 1:26 AM UTC

Looking at this as conventional power savings is wrong.

It's better to look at this as comfort. I just recently bought one of those 20 watt heat mats, for one specific reason: while using a computer it is impossible to keep my feet warm. Socks, boots, anything? Doesn't work. It was a huge problem while I was studying.

Since I got one, for 20 W, my feet are warm. In fact, my perception of room temperature as a whole has been massively improved. This is a lot less power usage then any type of whole room solution.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#93

Post by XorNot » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 1:28 AM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #46

Spot-heating, especially within a leaky building envelope utilizing expensive heat sources (electric resistance) is one option. But it's hardly the only one, or the best. For northern climates, taking a whole-system approach to home/structure design gets you a tremendously greater payoff in terms of energy savings. Among the most powerful demonstrations of this I've seen are Thorsten Chlupp / Reina LLC's experiences…

On hot water bottles: the energy spent boiling that water is likely comparable to the energy an electric blanket on low power would use.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#94

Post by wickedlogic » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 1:28 AM UTC

jlebar wrote: post #79

balfirevic wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how people's desires can be "wasteful". I find that "summer inside the house" during winter is absolutely wonderful from the comfort standpoint and certainly wouldn't trade it for the saving that I would get on electric bill. Of course, I realize that many people don't care for that. More power (and smaller bills) to them.

> I don't know how people's desires can be "wasteful". In a world where people paid for the true cost of their energy use, this argument might fly. But in most of the world today, this isn't the case, not by a long shot. If you heated to "summer inside the house" and bought high-quality carbon offsets corresponding to your increased energy use, I think most people wouldn't call that "wasteful". "Warm" might be the ad…

Sorta like when people order whatever they want for lunch, because they bought high quality calorie offsets?

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#95

Post by japhyr » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 1:31 AM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #46

Spot-heating, especially within a leaky building envelope utilizing expensive heat sources (electric resistance) is one option. But it's hardly the only one, or the best. For northern climates, taking a whole-system approach to home/structure design gets you a tremendously greater payoff in terms of energy savings. Among the most powerful demonstrations of this I've seen are Thorsten Chlupp / Reina LLC's experiences…

I live in southeast Alaska, where heating issues can make or break your ability to pay rent or afford a mortgage.

Most homes are heated using fuel oil. We moved into an awesome old house last summer, and we were worried about heating costs. The landlord had a heat pump installed last fall. I'm sure we would have had some $300-$500 heating bills (per month) last winter if we were using oil, but the heat pump never cost more than $150 per month.

That was a relief, because we spent one winter in a drafty house with a malfunctioning boiler system. That was not fun at all, and we moved out just because of heating costs.

I'm hoping to buy a house sometime in the next few years, and the first thing I'll do is complete a thorough heating overhaul of the house.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#96

Post by staunch » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 1:32 AM UTC

Kotatsu tables really are great. Some pictures here if you haven't seen them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotatsu

Unfortunately even a cheap table in the U.S. is more expensive than it should be. There's an opportunity for someone to create kotatsu tables and things like them for the American market.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#97

Post by XorNot » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 1:32 AM UTC

jlebar wrote: post #79

balfirevic wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how people's desires can be "wasteful". I find that "summer inside the house" during winter is absolutely wonderful from the comfort standpoint and certainly wouldn't trade it for the saving that I would get on electric bill. Of course, I realize that many people don't care for that. More power (and smaller bills) to them.

> I don't know how people's desires can be "wasteful". In a world where people paid for the true cost of their energy use, this argument might fly. But in most of the world today, this isn't the case, not by a long shot. If you heated to "summer inside the house" and bought high-quality carbon offsets corresponding to your increased energy use, I think most people wouldn't call that "wasteful". "Warm" might be the ad…

In a world where people paid the true cost of their energy usage, there wouldn't be an absolute deluge of houses built by terrible contractors with terrible insulation on the market, where the biggest, best and cheapest energy saving measures weren't put in when the house was built.

I want summer in my house during the winter. This should be an explicit goal, because you can't get there by just cranking up the heat since it doesn't deal with draughts and the like. If this were a recognized goal, then everyone would be better off in every way.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#98

Post by skywhopper » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 1:33 AM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #67

OK, Paul Wheaton simply doesn't know what he's talking about: "I think that this does produce some savings, but not as much as you might think. If you set your thermostat to a constant 70, the heater works a little at a time throughout the day. If you drop it to 50 at night or in the middle of the day, the heater stops working, but then when the time comes to warm the house again, the heater has to work at full power…

This all depends on the type of heating system you have, the weather where you live, whether you have a humidifier on your heating system, and the insulation level of your house.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#99

Post by neves » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 1:37 AM UTC

You just can't go the bathroom.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#100

Post by personZ » Thu, Jul 31, 2014, 1:39 AM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #85

dredmorbius wrote: post #67

OK, Paul Wheaton simply doesn't know what he's talking about: "I think that this does produce some savings, but not as much as you might think. If you set your thermostat to a constant 70, the heater works a little at a time throughout the day. If you drop it to 50 at night or in the middle of the day, the heater stops working, but then when the time comes to warm the house again, the heater has to work at full power…

I agree with all your theory. I thought the same thing. Then I went out and bought a programable thermostat, set it quite low overnight and during the day, and warmer from 5-8 AM and 5-8 PM. My heating bill was higher than just maintaining 68-70 all the time. And that's not even counting the $100 I spent on the thermostat (now on a shelf in the garage, I put the old manual one back in its place).

From a thermal energy perspective this simply isn't possible.

However, some systems do lead to this because of flaws in the the implementation. My ground heat pump, for instance, has a backup electric heat system that it will automatically, and unavoidably, utilize if it hasn't reached the target temperature within a set, relatively short period of time. So in my very well insulated home I do indeed see significant cost increases if I do temperature setbacks, as the recovery period sees more expensive/less efficient electric heat kick in, versus just incrementally using the heat pump through the day. Some fuel-based systems go to a less efficient high-heat stage in the same sort of situation.