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Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

richsoil.com

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Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#41

Post by lutorm »

bluthru wrote: post #29
lutorm wrote: post #17

This is why changing out incandescents for CFL's in a heated house does almost nothing for saving energy... and if the heat comes from electricity, nothing for saving money, either.

Of course it does. Heating up a hole in your ceiling does not efficiently warm the occupant. You want to introduce heat low and near occupants. Also, changing out multiple incandescents means more manufacturing, more truck deliveries to the store, more manufacturing, etc. vs. using a single LED bulb for two decades. If you live in coal country, then you definitely want to reduce your electrical load and instead rely…

Most heat from incandescents is infrared radiation, which travels. If you get useful light from the bulb, you also get useful heat. Plenty of rooms are heated with one big, honking radiator, which certainly is no more effective.

That said, it's true that some of the heat ends up not being useful (just like a lot of the light from the bulb doesn't either) -- unless there's a heated story above, of course.

And I never implied that I think it's a bad idea to get rid of incandescents, for all the other reasons you mention.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#42

Post by lutorm »

cma wrote: post #39
lutorm wrote: post #17

This is why changing out incandescents for CFL's in a heated house does almost nothing for saving energy... and if the heat comes from electricity, nothing for saving money, either.

Depends on if you can use a heat pump or not. Heat pumps are more efficient than resistive heating.

True -- if you live in a suitable climate, this is probably the best option of all, regardless of what your electricity comes from.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#43

Post by curun1r »

Swizec wrote: post #6

This is where I really prefer the European model[1] - you heat the whole house with hot water. You make hot water with cheap natural gas. If you're lucky enough, you can even use geothermal. Then you use insulation. This especially is something that feels nobody in the US has heard of. At least in California. As a result, your radiators are turned down to 2 out of 10 all day (heating turns off automatically overnight…

> Then you use insulation. This especially is something that feels nobody in the US has heard of. At least in California.

In defense of Californians, most of us rarely, if ever, turn on a heater and most homes here don't have AC. Our heating and cooling costs are a small fraction of those of you who live in places that have seasons.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#44

Post by cma »

p_eter_p wrote: post #8

A similar approach works in hot climates. A friend of mine saved a substantial amount of money by getting an efficient portable AC unit for his bedroom, and shutting off the main air conditioner for the house at night. In a southern summer, the savings add up quick.

Depends where you live--a house with no air conditioning generally won't suffer mold, and neither will one with air conditioning. But spotty air conditioning without something like a dehumidifier will breed mold and warp floors.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#46

Post by dredmorbius »

Spot-heating, especially within a leaky building envelope utilizing expensive heat sources (electric resistance) is one option.

But it's hardly the only one, or the best. For northern climates, taking a whole-system approach to home/structure design gets you a tremendously greater payoff in terms of energy savings.

Among the most powerful demonstrations of this I've seen are Thorsten Chlupp / Reina LLC's experiences designing and building zero net energy homes in Fairbanks, Alaska.

His videos are long (~90 minutes) be exceptionally comprehensive. The TL;DR is:

• Total envelope. He pays exceptional attention to any thermal envelope penetrations. All emissions (air, water, sewage) pass through thermal exchanges.

• Thermal mass. The foundation, flooring, central masonry stove, and a 5,000 gallon stratified thermal storage tank all store and scavange thermal energy both passively and actively.

• Moisture control. Heat barriers introduce thermal issues. Chlupp makes use of multiple glazings, window setbacks, and _exterior_ thermal shutters to minimize moisture buildup on windows. Moisture barriers and ventilation of interstitial spaces is designed to clear moisture.

• Heat pumps. Rather than create thermal energy directly (other than the masonry stove), Chlupp moves heat using ground-loop heat pumps.

• Solar and net metering. Solar panels (yes, in Alaska) and net metering help him arrive at net zero energy. His first-year goal wasn't met due to plug-in hybrid vehicles, an oversight in his energy modeling.

Though conceived as a whole-system ground-up greenfield design, the principles are applicable to a lesser degree as retrofit options.

Oh, and for heating your bed: a 1 liter Nalgene bottle, filled with boiling hot water, and slipped into a wool sock, will heat your bed cozily. Two are almost certainly too hot, but you're welcome to try. And they'll last the night.

http://www.reina-llc.com/

Alaska's First Net Zero Energy Homes Performance Update http://fixyt.com/watch?v=Xen_VWyDezY

Path to Net Zero Energy Series -- Alaska's first Net Zero Ho... http://fixyt.com/watch?v=AtHkvpRI6fc

http://fixyt.com/search?q=thorsten+chlupp+zero+net+energy

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#47

Post by maxerickson »

Swizec wrote: post #6

This is where I really prefer the European model[1] - you heat the whole house with hot water. You make hot water with cheap natural gas. If you're lucky enough, you can even use geothermal. Then you use insulation. This especially is something that feels nobody in the US has heard of. At least in California. As a result, your radiators are turned down to 2 out of 10 all day (heating turns off automatically overnight…

Forced air heat is a lot more common in the U.S. because we are further along on adopting air conditioning. If you put in ducts for AC, it's cheaper to use those to distribute heat. Upscale construction does seem to be adding radiant floor heat.

Houses are generally pretty under-insulated though.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#48

Post by cheald »

nkozyra wrote: post #45

I live in Florida. This entire discussion is bizarro world for me. It costs nearly $400 a month to keep my house at 74deg in the summer.

Phoenix, ditto, except $500/80.

Installing solar screens helped a ton. Our power bills are down around 30% this summer since installing them.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#49

Post by dredmorbius »

nkozyra wrote: post #45

I live in Florida. This entire discussion is bizarro world for me. It costs nearly $400 a month to keep my house at 74deg in the summer.

Which is an excellent reminder that the challenge isn't heating or cooling, it's minimizing energy use as dictated by the requirements of your environment.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#50

Post by _delirium »

nkozyra wrote: post #45

I live in Florida. This entire discussion is bizarro world for me. It costs nearly $400 a month to keep my house at 74deg in the summer.

I live in Copenhagen, and it's also bizarro world for me. :) But mainly because electricity is very expensive here, whereas district heating (hot water produced by municipal plants, which you can draw through your radiator if you'd like) is quite cheap. It would be hard to beat the costs of district heating using a space-heater approach, even given better spatial concentration of the heat.
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