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UK to allow driverless cars on public roads in January

bbc.com

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Re: UK to allow driverless cars on public roads in January

#41

Post by seestheday »

Buttons840 wrote: post #32
notahacker wrote: post #24

For the last decade or so, human learner drivers in the UK have had to pass a video "hazard perception test" based on their ability to recognise potential developing hazards (kids playing near the roads, a cyclist confronted by a line of parked cars, a vehicle approaching a junction onto your lane) at a very early point before their movements make their entry into the roadway inevitable. This strikes me as something…

That's true. I think of turning right at a crosswalk where some pedestrian is really anxious for their turn to walk, so they're standing right on the edge of the curb. I always pay careful attention to them and rely on my human intuition of body language, eye contact, etc, until I feel comfortable that they're going to remain on the edge of the curb instead of steeping out in front of me during my turn. A robot can't…

A robot should have much faster reflexes than you do. Robots should be able to compensate for people actively running or diving in front of them. The situation you describe should be very easy to compensate for.

Don't bother relying on body language or eye contact, just automatically sense the person shaped object, if it is close to the roadway, slow to a speed where you can avoid easily if they step out. Assume that they will. Heck, add in a buffer so you don't bother the passengers of the car by having to slam on the brakes.

Re: UK to allow driverless cars on public roads in January

#42

Post by lotu »

notahacker wrote: post #24

For the last decade or so, human learner drivers in the UK have had to pass a video "hazard perception test" based on their ability to recognise potential developing hazards (kids playing near the roads, a cyclist confronted by a line of parked cars, a vehicle approaching a junction onto your lane) at a very early point before their movements make their entry into the roadway inevitable. This strikes me as something…

If you watch this video you can see that Google's cars doe exactly this. You even see the car pick up on hand signals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk3oc1Hr62g Realistically you would have to modify the software to pass the test for stupid reasons, for example the vehicle might refuse to function at all without it's LIDAR, insisting on slowing to stop and pulling over, where the video wants to continue driving.

Re: UK to allow driverless cars on public roads in January

#43

Post by Already__Taken »

knocte wrote: post #19
suprgeek wrote: post #17

When ever I see a new place or country allowing a test of these cars this wired article always comes to mind [1]. I think the two main questions will be liability & drivability - 1) when (not if) these cars get into a serious crash, who is to assume liability? Is it Google who created the algorithm? Is it the Audi integrator who fused Google technology into the Audi? Is it the fault of the mapping software that did n…

wrt 1), I think it's preferable to study each scarce accident very closely to avoid it to happen again (like it happens in the aviation industry) rather than just being scared of the technology and remaining on the status-quo of allowing so many casualties each year because we still allow humans to drive.

It's also one of those scary questions we'd all like a clear answer to before we depend on the technology. However it's exactly the kind of question the courts were invented to answer.

The aviation industry is a fantastic parallel that should be modelled after.

Re: UK to allow driverless cars on public roads in January

#44

Post by Already__Taken »

joncrocks wrote: post #37
ignostic wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You always voice the same concerns, I always hear the same concerns. It's crazy to me that people get hung up on the liability issue. 1) Liability is assessed exactly as it is now. We use the same system to determine which car was at fault. If it's your car, you are at fault. Someone will insure a self-driving car, especially once the safety record is established. Your current provider might not, but someone will. If…

While I agree that liability will be assessed the same way it is now, the answer isn't always: If it's your car, you are at fault. There are examples of situations where a car producer/manufacturer was at fault for accidents, caused by bad software. The question is where that line will be in the myriad of situations that will be more complex due to the the introduction of automation. The control system itself is then…

> would there be regular sensor cleaning/calibration tasks that need to be met before the manufacturer is deemed liable? What about tire pressure?

As someone from the UK, I'm amazed that isn't the case. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOT_test#Overview_of_the_test

Re: UK to allow driverless cars on public roads in January

#46

Post by csomar »

suprgeek wrote: post #17

When ever I see a new place or country allowing a test of these cars this wired article always comes to mind [1]. I think the two main questions will be liability & drivability - 1) when (not if) these cars get into a serious crash, who is to assume liability? Is it Google who created the algorithm? Is it the Audi integrator who fused Google technology into the Audi? Is it the fault of the mapping software that did n…

1) How is this different from cars driven by humans? In my country (no knowledge about other countries), you insure the car, and not the driver. The insurer doesn't care about the driver and shouldn't.

2) I think there should be always an option to drive the car yourself.

Re: UK to allow driverless cars on public roads in January

#47

Post by roc »

joncrocks wrote: post #37
ignostic wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You always voice the same concerns, I always hear the same concerns. It's crazy to me that people get hung up on the liability issue. 1) Liability is assessed exactly as it is now. We use the same system to determine which car was at fault. If it's your car, you are at fault. Someone will insure a self-driving car, especially once the safety record is established. Your current provider might not, but someone will. If…

While I agree that liability will be assessed the same way it is now, the answer isn't always: If it's your car, you are at fault. There are examples of situations where a car producer/manufacturer was at fault for accidents, caused by bad software. The question is where that line will be in the myriad of situations that will be more complex due to the the introduction of automation. The control system itself is then…

> " The question is where that line will be in the myriad of situations that will be more complex due to the the introduction of automation."

It will be determined via litigation, as it is now. Technological complexity of subject matter has yet to present any serious roadblock, or cause any significant change, in the prosecution of the law.

Similarly, whether neglected maintenance (or third-party modifications/parts) contributed to a collision will be determined in court, just as it is now.

As a side note: given the service opportunities afforded by self-driving vehicles, I would be surprised if operators and insurers didn't subsidize or operate "while you sleep" maintenance service plans. e.g. Once a month or so, while you sleep, your car will drive itself to the shop to get checked out, ensure updates are received, recall services performed, etc.

Manufacturers would add a revenue stream and lower their legal costs/exposure and consumers would have yet-another-hassle of car ownership removed.

Re: UK to allow driverless cars on public roads in January

#48

Post by georgemcbay »

Buttons840 wrote: post #32
notahacker wrote: post #24

For the last decade or so, human learner drivers in the UK have had to pass a video "hazard perception test" based on their ability to recognise potential developing hazards (kids playing near the roads, a cyclist confronted by a line of parked cars, a vehicle approaching a junction onto your lane) at a very early point before their movements make their entry into the roadway inevitable. This strikes me as something…

That's true. I think of turning right at a crosswalk where some pedestrian is really anxious for their turn to walk, so they're standing right on the edge of the curb. I always pay careful attention to them and rely on my human intuition of body language, eye contact, etc, until I feel comfortable that they're going to remain on the edge of the curb instead of steeping out in front of me during my turn. A robot can't…

A robot should always assume the person might suddenly enter the street regardless of body language or other clues and drive at speeds that allow safe stopping if that occurs.

A person driving should do the same.

I don't see the discrepancy.

Re: UK to allow driverless cars on public roads in January

#49

Post by ChuckMcM »

A friend of mine noted that you could put self driving cars on the road in Italy right now and nobody would notice :-) I agree with the consensus that driverless cars are inevitable. And knowing that they are inevitable is kind of like knowing a train is going to derail on a curve before it does. You get some time to think about what is going to happen next.

In the train case you would do things like get movable property out of the way, for the cars you can think about things like a defensible yard barrier. Some people already do this for drunks, but putting a 12 - 14" 'step up' along the edge of the property that borders the street will stop most out of control passenger vehicles. Laws will get tested and litigated, new ways to analyze risk will be developed, planners will want to think about how they design roads/signage/maintenance around them.

I suspect this a 'moonshot' technology, which is one where you can demonstrate it in 1969 but can't actually repeat it commercially until 50 years later in 2019.

Re: UK to allow driverless cars on public roads in January

#50

Post by purringmeow »

bdamm wrote: post #38
purringmeow wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That occupation will disappear, save for a few high-end human driver services, IMO. After the taxis come the trucks. I am quite certain shipping companies will be the quick ditch humans. After all, this means no more travel expenses & salaries, no more breaks, probably automatic unloading too! Goods will get cheaper, although hundreds of thousands of people will be out of work. I am scared.

I seriously doubt that truck drivers are going out of business any time soon. First of all, there's a massive fleet of trucks requiring drivers, and replacement trucks are expensive. Second of all, truck drivers also serve as a security guard. Even if we have self-driving trucks, I imagine they'll have a chaperone for a long time yet. I expect that trucks driven by a human-computer team will be safer than trucks driv…

True, it's expensive to replace new trucks. But if it's a lot cheaper in the long term, it would be a serious incentive to push for the removal of drivers. And yeah, I too think that computers will get gradually implemented. Though I am sure the process will be 100% automated in the end.
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