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The Suburbs Will Die: One Man's Fight to Fix the American Dream

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Re: The Suburbs Will Die: One Man's Fight to Fix the American Dream

#141

Post by superuser2 »

modoc wrote: post #71
ObviousScience wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like to usually "me too", but the grand parent comment very accurately described my experience of suburbs as well. We jokingly referred to it as "the suburban cultural wasteland", because you had to walk 2-3 miles to find anything that wasn't more houses, a grocery store with corporate specialty stores attached (Starbucks coffee, various automotive places, etc), or a school. Most of what you could find in tha…

FWIW my suburban town has almost no chain anythings. I can walk to local coffee shops (have to drive to a Starbucks). We have an amazing collection of local restaurants covering almost every possible cuisine. We have a great library, rail trails, public forrest and green spaces, a local CSA my wife bikes to once a week to pick up our veggies, and much more.

I think we're talking about different things.

The kinds of suburbs people are lambasting here are almost by definition places where the only things in non-driving distance are houses and some basic amenities (schools, big box/grocery stores, maybe a library). Once you're to the point of having more than a couple of restaurants in walking distance (that aren't Perkins) that's not really what we're thinking of when we blast "suburbs."

Re: The Suburbs Will Die: One Man's Fight to Fix the American Dream

#142

Post by pouetpouet »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #64
pnathan wrote: post #24

I don't like suburbs. Why? - I don't like the constant driving to get anywhere. - I don't like the malls, the big box stores, the "clone" button that seems applied across the landscape. - I don't like the giant roads carving their way around, splitting communities. - I don't like the squandering of resources on lawns! individual houses! low-density housing! I can say, with confidence, I'd like to live in a place wher…

I'm a child of the suburbs and have since moved to the city so take this with a grain of salt. I enjoy the malls, the big box stores, and the clones. Why? I know that pretty much anywhere I go I can get a consistent experience. I can go the local mall and almost anything I can want or imagine is available, which at some level is fascinating. What's more, as cliche as all these places ares, there is a bit of a shared…

I totally get that it can be desirable to some. The problem is that sprawling suburbs are not only bad for the environment, they are financially unsustainable with current financing schemes. They will scale back. The nicest ones will stay forever if some are willing to pay for them.

Re: The Suburbs Will Die: One Man's Fight to Fix the American Dream

#143

Post by gknoy »

RangerScience wrote: post #125
secabeen wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, LA has a very good public transportation system. It's just bus-based, can be slow compared to driving, and is widely considered as only for poor people. Higher-income people have a strong aversion to taking the bus, even while happily taking subways.

I find that's mostly a function of how spread out LA is. Public transit is always going to be slower than personal transport - it's got to stop every so often, or what's the point? - and that's just magnified by the distances involved. Also, we don't have great public transit through high-traffic areas from where people are to where they want to go, because we've got this weird kind of medium density continuous spraw…

I bet it's that subways don't compete for traffic, whereas buses have to deal with all the congestion that cars do, in most cases. If my choices are to Drive Myself (my own music, my own pace, no motion sickness, and no uncomfortable staring at the lady across the aisle from me because hers is the only window I can see out of) versus a bus, I'm likely to take the car. This is compounded by not having to __wait__ for the bus schedule.

Taking the Bus + Train from SF to LA area takes longer than driving, and has more stress. Can I stop to use the bathroom, or will I miss the bus? Not an issue if I am the driver. I realize that's not the same as city driving issues, though.

Re: The Suburbs Will Die: One Man's Fight to Fix the American Dream

#144

Post by pnathan »

ch4s3 wrote: post #16
zavulon wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, I got that part.. but then what? Small towns die out, and everyone moves to the big city?

Small towns can be fine if they have a compact walkable downtown, and are suitably close to job centers. Rural small towns and old rust belt towns are likely to die slow deaths regardless.

AFAICT, rural small towns are dying down to the minimum needed to support the local economy... it's kind of ugly in some places. :-/

(I used to live in Idaho. Big cities there have 1,000 people)

Re: The Suburbs Will Die: One Man's Fight to Fix the American Dream

#145

Post by jefurii »

secabeen wrote: post #86
Apofis wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in NYC, and recently I spent two weeks in Simi Valley, a city north of Los Angeles, and was shocked that it's basically impossible to get around without a car. Even in LA, it seems as if the public transport system is nearly non-existent.

Actually, LA has a very good public transportation system. It's just bus-based, can be slow compared to driving, and is widely considered as only for poor people. Higher-income people have a strong aversion to taking the bus, even while happily taking subways.

It could be better if Metro would implement a hub-and-spoke system with buses running within local neighborhoods and trains running longer distances. I worked at Metro for a couple years in the mid-2000s. Hub-and-spoke would come up occasionally but seemed to always get beaten down.

Re: The Suburbs Will Die: One Man's Fight to Fix the American Dream

#146

Post by nmcfarl »

coryrc wrote: post #95
School-Cotton wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that true? I live in Ballard, a pretty damn residential neighborhood of Seattle, which is only a medium-density city. I live perfectly comfortably without a car. I have heard of people living comfortably without a car in NYC, Chicago, San Francisco, Pittsburgh, and I'm sure others that I'm forgetting. I even did so myself in Tucson for a year, though I'll grant that that was pretty annoying.

I'm guessing you don't have kids and do work in downtown Seattle? And rarely visit Lake City or West Seattle or anywhere south of Seattle? Or anywhere requiring a transfer outside of commuting hours? Because those are all significantly (hours more) to take mass transit than to drive.

Not the op - but I do have a kid and don't have a car in Wallingford (Seattle) and it's very pleasant. But I don't travel beyond one transfer, and rarely that. And I do use car2go, or hertz, or my bike, if such travel is required.

Re: The Suburbs Will Die: One Man's Fight to Fix the American Dream

#147

Post by superuser2 »

pnathan wrote: post #78
akgerber wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of different types of suburbs out there. I grew up in an old streetcar suburb in the Midwest where almost all of the kids walked to school (though most people still drove to work, since many jobs had sprawled out to office parks). I could walk to my job at a grocery store and there was a nice bike trail, and once I realized that biking was a practical form of transportation, in addition to recreation,…

As a remark: Seattle has adopted a "mini-downtown" approach with desirable neighborhoods (that I hope gets copied elsewhere). Each neighborhood that starts seeing some density growth/interest has? will get pushed toward? having sort of a mini-city-center so that the neighborhood can kind of operate semi-independently within the city-umbrella. Kind of a federal/province approach within a city. I really appreciate it.…

Chicago does this.

We're a city of neighborhoods. The Loop is the main tourist destination, sure, but few people actually live there. We live in neighborhoods. Some have houses with (small) lots, some have apartments, some have both. There's a nice sprinkling of parks, and most neighborhoods have amenities like a few independent restaurants, maybe some chain restaurants, coffee shops, bars, CVS, and a grocery store or two. Things you might even find in a larger/denser suburb. The difference is that you can usually walk Unlike Manhattan, buses are best for most short-haul trips while the rail system is best for longer rides (we don't do the "trains go north-south, buses go east-west" thing.)

Public transit is often slower than driving, even with traffic, but you can enjoy the time if you bring your smartphone and/or a book.

Re: The Suburbs Will Die: One Man's Fight to Fix the American Dream

#148

Post by pouetpouet »

Zigurd wrote: post #57

Recently a researcher at Toyota predicted that self-driving cars would perpetuate suburbia and enable more driving. A door-to-door ride in my own car would be far faster than riding the Boston area commuter rail, which has an inconveniently sparse schedule, and then the Red Line into Cambridge. The only reason to take the commuter rail is to avoid the chore of driving. The diesel locomotives are not cleaner or more e…

Nobody knows. Robotaxis are a bit like carsharing, they change the economics. A private ownership car bears a lot of fixed costs, and each mile get cheaper. Once you own one, you are likely to use it all the time. With pay-as-you-go robotaxis the incentives are different. Going car-free will be easier.

Self driving cars will relieve downtowns/walkable places from dead parking space. That means more destinations reachable by foot/bike. Why use a car when you can use your feet?

Self driving cars also means that roads will be safer for pedestrians and cyclists.

Congestion won't go away. Now you can read/work/play in your car, but that's about it.

Last but not least, sprawl is still unsustainable in terms of infrastructure.

Re: The Suburbs Will Die: One Man's Fight to Fix the American Dream

#149

Post by gohrt »

transfire wrote: post #93

1. Require higher standards. Infrastructure needs to last decades, not years. We used to build things that well. There is no reason we can't again. Then the big bucks we pay up front would be worth it. Unfortunately we have been moving in the opposite direction, to fill the coffers of cheap fat cats. 2. Zoning laws must change. It is ridiculous the a suburban family has to drive to the Super Walmart for a gallon of m…

> When I was young there was a local convenience store just down every street (and not just crappy junk filled 7-11s).

Do you think zoning laws prevent 7-11 from selling milk, or do you think 7-11 sells what the market buys?

Re: The Suburbs Will Die: One Man's Fight to Fix the American Dream

#150

Post by gohrt »

bane wrote: post #140
3pt14159 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define walking distance. If you're talking about more than 15 or 20 minutes I think we have different definitions. Most people cannot get more than a grocery store from a walk away if they live in a suburb.

5-10 minutes. It's an easy walk. Maybe...2 or 3 long blocks in NYC. I realize of course that I got "lucky" and live in a really especially great suburb. However, I've noticed most of the developments in my area tend to be similar. A central "town center/shopping mall" surrounded by condos and apartments, surrounded by townhouses, surrounded by single family homes.

> central "town center/shopping mall" surrounded by condos and apartments, surrounded by townhouses,

That's not the kind of suburb at issue. That's a small town.

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