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Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

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Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#81
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying you're wrong but it seems incredibly difficult. The problem is, how do you choose who to fund to go and do maths, how on earth you'd track their progress if any, and how do you achieve a return on your investment - even if 'you' means a sovereign nation and you have very general and long-term goals. If you can come up with something distinct from a university mathematics department to achieve this, it…

I think what surprises me is the discrepancy between reading about mathematicians who worked with younger students out of seemingly altruistic motives (Kolmogorov and Erdos come to mind) and then a contemporary math department that might only accept 1% of applicants out of a pool of qualified people because of perhaps funding concerns or some interest in maintaining exclusivity. On top of that, there is a long histor…

This is more or less how the Royal Society started.

Academia should now be considered a conglomerate of business corporations, dedicated primarily to increasing profits and income and cutting costs.

Like other corps there's a trend towards increasing perceptions of value by marketing mediocre products and experiences to death, rather than providing actual social value with products and relationships that are truly inspiringly awesome.

So I don't think the current model is sustainable. It won't collapse next week, but I'd be surprised if we're still here twenty years from now.

As for PhDs - in my own area of interest the tenured people are pretty mediocre (believe me - I've worked through their papers) and most of the innovation and invention happens in industry.

So, there's no obvious benefit to spending the money. As it happens I earn enough to do research part time - no special resources needed in this field - and I'm getting a lot of satisfaction from making my own way for my own reasons.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#82

Has anyone ever looked at how large some of these graduate STEM departments are by the number of students? When I decided to go back to grad school for maths, I realized that doing a Ph.D. would probably be fruitless. How did I determine this? I went to UC Berkeley, Stanford and UCLA, arguably the best math departments in the country based on the NRC rankings and AMS rankings, and counted up their graduate students.…

Another option, at least in the United States if you're a citizen, is to do contract work for the Department of Defense.

Step 1: Acquire STEM Ph.D.

Step 2: Get a job with a DoD contractor.

Step 3: Profit!

A short look at job options in academia disabused me of pursuing that option. Working twice as hard for half the pay? No thanks.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#83

Has anyone ever looked at how large some of these graduate STEM departments are by the number of students? When I decided to go back to grad school for maths, I realized that doing a Ph.D. would probably be fruitless. How did I determine this? I went to UC Berkeley, Stanford and UCLA, arguably the best math departments in the country based on the NRC rankings and AMS rankings, and counted up their graduate students.…

Over on /r/math you hear this sentiment a lot from maths postgrads. The recommendation you hear a lot on that board is that if you are doing a maths degree you should also study something else somewhat complementary (comp sci is a popular choice) and hope to find employment in that field. I had honestly at some point considered doing a Ph.D in Maths but upon further consideration - and realizing then that my future w…

Yeah, I'm also on r/math. The saddest thing to see is the periodic repost of jobs for math degrees. It really is sad to see, and it reminds me of why I was often depressed as an undergrad. It's hard enough that the courses are challenging, but wondering what all this hard work would lead made it even more depressing.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#84
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going for a PhD in Math and dropped out for pretty much the same reason. The field was so specialized that nobody really understands anyone else's research, which makes it mostly not-merit-based (politics) who gets hired where. Also, it really wasn't fun. I figured it would be easier to work as programmer and study Math (or other things) in my spare time. It seems like a waste to spend 5+ years on a PhD and 3-5…

Yeah, there are a lot of possible divisions and specializations in Math it's not even funny. Most of them unintelligible to "mere mortals". Also hard to find a job, especially one that uses your work, unless you work in number theory, in this case you have a job at the NSA.

Number theory is an extremely broad field in itself. I'm pretty sure most of it is completely irrelevant to the NSA. If you do a PhD in any theoretical field you'll almost never find a job outside of academia that uses any of your work.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Few comments have made me want to downvote as much as this one. I still have another hundred or so points to go until I am allowed so I'll have to settle for explaining to you how much I disagree. Your argument is a logical fallacy that I see a lot, but doesn't have a fancy Latin name. It is a combination of appeal to authority and circular reasoning so I'll give it a name right now: the Authority Circle. It has the…

My post is not the conventional wisdom, hence I expect the downvotes. But hear me out. I said investors, not an individual. There are a lot of professional investors who full time investigate a company, in fact Wall Street is full of them. Do I really believe that you (or I) am better informed about a company's future prospects? Why do you believe you are smarter than they are? Consider (again) Amazon. Why does it ha…

You open by claiming that you are being downvoted because you are such a free-thinking maverick that you lost the popularity contest with the stodgy conservatives at HN instead being due to any shortcomings in your argument. That's adorable.

Your second paragraph sticks with the same nonsense as your previous post i.e. investors are smarter than us so they have to be right.

Now you try some new stuff so thanks for that. You made a good example of Amazon but since I already claimed that strong CEOs can resist short-term investor pressures and Bezos clearly falls into this category I invalidated this argument before you even wrote it down. It makes me think you aren't really paying attention.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make with the next paragraph but whatever it is there is not enough information there to draw any sort of conclusion. Stocks tank for many reasons including bad luck so one tale of a data point isn't useful.

Your last paragraph is well done. Unlike your other points it took a little thought to deduce why it is incorrect. I do believe there are many overvalued stocks but I am not going to short them. Bubbles can live a very, very long time and shorting them is a bet on when the bubble will pop, not on how big the bubble is, and I claim no special insight or information on the exact time any particular ponzi pyramid will inevitably implode.

Much improved: 2/10 (earned in the last paragraph only.)

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#86

Has anyone ever looked at how large some of these graduate STEM departments are by the number of students? When I decided to go back to grad school for maths, I realized that doing a Ph.D. would probably be fruitless. How did I determine this? I went to UC Berkeley, Stanford and UCLA, arguably the best math departments in the country based on the NRC rankings and AMS rankings, and counted up their graduate students.…

So why is the US pushing STEM so much?

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#87
It is worth noting that employment in Eng and CS is up about 5 percentage points from 2010 to 2012 (the last 2 years for which the article has data). Not a huge gain, but I would not consider a 5 percentage points increase (10% increase) to be stagnation.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my field (life sciences), postdocs get paid about 40% more than grad students, and are required to pay into their benefits as they become official "employees" and not students. This, at least initially, puts them back close to the graduate salary. Yes, it does increase over time, to about 2x salary. It also plateaus there quickly. My question to you: assuming you are in this "certain subset of people," do you thin…

It may not surprise you to learn that I don't spend all that much time worrying over my "career path", or "earning potential", or lose any sleep whatsoever over what some hiring manager or recruiter makes of me. Despite this, money and employment has never even remotely been a problem. My broader point is that obsessing over these career metrics subscribes to a very narrow worldview of what constitutes success, and t…

I think it's great that you have found your version of success. I'm not sure I would say there are "a great many people" behind your cause, but if it works then I think that's fantastic.

But realistically, I'm not talking "earning potential", I'm talking about "spending your twenties making $10/hour as a graduate student and shafting yourself come retirement." Nobody becomes an academic to get rich, but I worry about the mid-life financial health of today's postdocs versus that of their mentors' at the same age.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My post is not the conventional wisdom, hence I expect the downvotes. But hear me out. I said investors, not an individual. There are a lot of professional investors who full time investigate a company, in fact Wall Street is full of them. Do I really believe that you (or I) am better informed about a company's future prospects? Why do you believe you are smarter than they are? Consider (again) Amazon. Why does it ha…

You open by claiming that you are being downvoted because you are such a free-thinking maverick that you lost the popularity contest with the stodgy conservatives at HN instead being due to any shortcomings in your argument. That's adorable. Your second paragraph sticks with the same nonsense as your previous post i.e. investors are smarter than us so they have to be right. Now you try some new stuff so thanks for th…

^ This incredibly snarky and condescending comment ought to be downvoted.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#90
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure you're a great guy and just coming across negatively in this one comment, but you sound less pleasant than the vast majority of McKinsey people I've ever met. It's a bit odd in a comment complaining about consulting douchebags.

I'm honest about what I am. I don't live to screw people over, in the way that management consultants do. (They invented the stack-ranking practices that destroyed a great number of technology companies, and that are directly responsible for the Enron calamity.) I'm also not trying to maximize my Niceness Score. The world is on fire and I'm not afraid if other people get soaked in the process of saving the damn thing…

I'm an engineer, and I have several friends who are or were management consultants. None of the ones I met "lived to screw people over".
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