Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

slate.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 116 posts

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#41

Post by jebus989 »

onetimeusename wrote: post #32

I would really like to see an alternative to going to grad school for a Ph.D. spring up for people who want to do research, particularly in math which doesn't require expensive labs. The overhead, the poor job prospects, the cost, the obsession with prestige all need to go.

> The overhead,

Vague

> the poor job prospects

Relative to whom?

> the cost

If you're paying a dime to do a PhD you're doing it wrong — I get paid an ok amount and my fees are covered.

> the obsession with prestige

Not sure what you mean by this.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#42

Post by chestervonwinch »

mililani wrote: post #26

Has anyone ever looked at how large some of these graduate STEM departments are by the number of students? When I decided to go back to grad school for maths, I realized that doing a Ph.D. would probably be fruitless. How did I determine this? I went to UC Berkeley, Stanford and UCLA, arguably the best math departments in the country based on the NRC rankings and AMS rankings, and counted up their graduate students.…

From what I've gathered, this has been the job outlook for academic positions for some time across most areas (not strictly STEM), hasn't it? The prospects for STEM phds in industry appears better (or at least as someone pursuing a math phd with plans to go into industry, I must tell myself that). I'm interested in what decision you made.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#43

Post by fsk »

mililani wrote: post #26

Has anyone ever looked at how large some of these graduate STEM departments are by the number of students? When I decided to go back to grad school for maths, I realized that doing a Ph.D. would probably be fruitless. How did I determine this? I went to UC Berkeley, Stanford and UCLA, arguably the best math departments in the country based on the NRC rankings and AMS rankings, and counted up their graduate students.…

I was going for a PhD in Math and dropped out for pretty much the same reason. The field was so specialized that nobody really understands anyone else's research, which makes it mostly not-merit-based (politics) who gets hired where. Also, it really wasn't fun. I figured it would be easier to work as programmer and study Math (or other things) in my spare time.

It seems like a waste to spend 5+ years on a PhD and 3-5 years on postdocs just to get a tenured position at the #200 ranked university or to be a permanent-adjunct.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#44

Post by raverbashing »

fsk wrote: post #43
mililani wrote: post #26

Has anyone ever looked at how large some of these graduate STEM departments are by the number of students? When I decided to go back to grad school for maths, I realized that doing a Ph.D. would probably be fruitless. How did I determine this? I went to UC Berkeley, Stanford and UCLA, arguably the best math departments in the country based on the NRC rankings and AMS rankings, and counted up their graduate students.…

I was going for a PhD in Math and dropped out for pretty much the same reason. The field was so specialized that nobody really understands anyone else's research, which makes it mostly not-merit-based (politics) who gets hired where. Also, it really wasn't fun. I figured it would be easier to work as programmer and study Math (or other things) in my spare time. It seems like a waste to spend 5+ years on a PhD and 3-5…

Yeah, there are a lot of possible divisions and specializations in Math it's not even funny. Most of them unintelligible to "mere mortals".

Also hard to find a job, especially one that uses your work, unless you work in number theory, in this case you have a job at the NSA.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#45

Post by onetimeusename »

jebus989 wrote: post #41
onetimeusename wrote: post #32

I would really like to see an alternative to going to grad school for a Ph.D. spring up for people who want to do research, particularly in math which doesn't require expensive labs. The overhead, the poor job prospects, the cost, the obsession with prestige all need to go.

> The overhead, Vague > the poor job prospects Relative to whom? > the cost If you're paying a dime to do a PhD you're doing it wrong — I get paid an ok amount and my fees are covered. > the obsession with prestige Not sure what you mean by this.

overhead -> time taken and requirements to write and defend a thesis, in addition to teaching and writing papers with advisor. rhetorical question, is having a phd the only way to prove without a doubt that you are an expert in a field and know how to do research?

poor job prospects-> Did you read the article? How many tenure track positions do you think there are for someone who researches pure math?

cost-> are you paid as much as you could if you worked in industry? Are all costs monetary?

obsession with prestige -> Credentials are certainly something that people value in any field. Rankings are kept of the various departments. Of course people think about prestige, but should they? I do not believe people should worry about their own or their school's rank but simply do math if they like it but of course those thoughts occur.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#46

Post by hyperbovine »

The economist types who ceaselessly churn out these doom-and-gloom articles about the PhD job market just kill me. Almost every single one unblinkingly equates success with salary. In my field postdocs pay 2-3x what you make as a grad student, while still giving you almost total flexibility to work on the things that interest you, with very little oversight. To a certain subset of people, this is far more attractive than making $150k figuring out how to make people click on ads, or some multiple of that selling your soul to a hedge fund.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#47

Post by math0ne »

hyperbovine wrote: post #46

The economist types who ceaselessly churn out these doom-and-gloom articles about the PhD job market just kill me. Almost every single one unblinkingly equates success with salary. In my field postdocs pay 2-3x what you make as a grad student, while still giving you almost total flexibility to work on the things that interest you, with very little oversight. To a certain subset of people, this is far more attractive…

I like the point you are trying to make, but you go a little off the deep end there at the end. There's nothing wrong with pursuing money.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#48

Post by math0ne »

mililani wrote: post #26

Has anyone ever looked at how large some of these graduate STEM departments are by the number of students? When I decided to go back to grad school for maths, I realized that doing a Ph.D. would probably be fruitless. How did I determine this? I went to UC Berkeley, Stanford and UCLA, arguably the best math departments in the country based on the NRC rankings and AMS rankings, and counted up their graduate students.…

The PHD in academia has never been about getting good a good job or getting value out of your time though it's about pursuing personal knowledge and projects. If you don't find any value in that than a PHD will not and never has been a good proposition.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#49

Post by onetimeusename »

rm445 wrote: post #39
onetimeusename wrote: post #32

I would really like to see an alternative to going to grad school for a Ph.D. spring up for people who want to do research, particularly in math which doesn't require expensive labs. The overhead, the poor job prospects, the cost, the obsession with prestige all need to go.

I'm not saying you're wrong but it seems incredibly difficult. The problem is, how do you choose who to fund to go and do maths, how on earth you'd track their progress if any, and how do you achieve a return on your investment - even if 'you' means a sovereign nation and you have very general and long-term goals. If you can come up with something distinct from a university mathematics department to achieve this, it…

I think what surprises me is the discrepancy between reading about mathematicians who worked with younger students out of seemingly altruistic motives (Kolmogorov and Erdos come to mind) and then a contemporary math department that might only accept 1% of applicants out of a pool of qualified people because of perhaps funding concerns or some interest in maintaining exclusivity. On top of that, there is a long history of mathematicians who worked on problems without any monetary compensation and perhaps without being associated with any university. Decartes and Fermat were both lawyers and even recently Yitang Zhang didn't seem to be paid to do research, and I don't count adjunct lecturer as a paid research job.

Given these, I don't see why an organization can't get together and simply agree to communicate, work together, somehow find a way to minimally provide access to journals for its members and dutifully train new students and grant them degrees. A Phd may or may not be optimal, perhaps something less stringent. A lot of people I know personally didn't get in to the field because they wanted to get rich, some sacrifice may be required but at least there is no denying a sort of "volunteerism" in mathematics.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#50

Post by Estragon »

michaelochurch wrote: post #19
nextos wrote: post #15

In some areas like biotech, a PhD is almost a union card to work in large corporations doing R&D. Without it, sadly, you won't be taken seriously.

Ph.D. bigotry is an artifact of the bad job market, which has just been getting worse for the past 30 years. There used to be BA-level research jobs. There still are. They're just now filled by PhDs. Basic research is pretty much gone. Pedigree bigotry is the natural reaction of a society or subculture in decline. When the future is hopeless and the present is uninspiring, people obsess about the past. PhD Bigotry is…

How are you making that bet?
Post reply on HN