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Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

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Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#11
post #5

[deleted]

the overall unemployment rate for doctoral holders is ~2%.

Remember that someone who would rather have a regular job but works one day a week at TGI Chillibees counts as employed for statistical purposes.

From anecdotal experience the underemployment rate is high - there are plenty of people that would like to have a full-time job but are making do as adjuncts.

The adjunct cancer has spread to places that you thought were immune. Look at Vassar College, it's a respectable place. In the Chemistry Department there are ten tenure-track professors, one full-time lecturer, and five adjuncts. Villanova, another respectable institution, is looking to fill three adjunct positions to teach graduate level courses. They do it because they can. There are sufficient pharmco refugee candidates around Philly and Boston from the last round of mergers and acquisitions for the model to work.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#12
I feel like there's more to this story than what the article and charts show. For example, what's the total number of PhD students over time? Has there been an increase in PhD students relative to demand so that naturally there will be less PhD graduates without immediate employment?

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#13

A big employer for chemistry PhDs that no one in the West has heard of is Wuxi Pharmatech, a contract research outfit in Shanghai. They do everything, synthesis, discovery, lead optimization, clinical testing, process development, formulation, the whole pipeline. Meanwhile, pharmaceutical companies stateside have turned into IP brokerages, if you think you have a promising target you buy a startup that has a compound…

This is a great point, employment stats are not the same across all PhDs.

Back in the early 2000's organic chemistry PhDs were in very high demand. Salaries went from ~$70K/yr to start to over $100K/yr by 2005 or so.

Since 2005 two things have happened: (1) as mentioned above, a lot of off-shoring of basic research has happened, particularly to China and India (not saying this is good or bad) and (2) a shift by the biotech industry away from small molecule drugs to biologic drugs (antibodies and other proteins).

The result is that organic chemistry PhDs have been hit pretty hard while PhDs with knowledge areas that support biologic drug development have done pretty well.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#14
post #8

I've seen other stats that suggest PhDs (particularly in STEM) actually have the lowest unemployment rates (around 2.2%) compared to any other cohort arranged by degree attained: http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

The article mentions that 2% figure.

The reasons the numbers are different is the article focuses on new PhDs, and the 2% figure is all PhDs in the market (new and not-new).

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#16

Ph.D. allowed for some things: - You can deepen your studies and study the state of the art of a given area - You can work in some area with all the support needed (equipment, etc) - Networking However, what's happening is: - The latest journals are a click away - A lot of experiments can be done in a computer setting nowadays - Evolution in some areas do not depend anymore on experimentation, and/or the cost for it…

I think this is a very simplistic view that only holds for a very few areas of study. The idea that computer simulation is an adequate substitute for scientific experimentation in the majority of the sciences is puzzling to me. Not that models don't help, but there's still far too much we either don't know how to model, or don't have the computational power to model (or we have both, but it would be more expensive than just testing it in a lab).

I also don't understand why your fourth point means that specialization is not necessary. Isn't it the opposite--that generalists with shallow knowledge of many fields no longer suffice? People must specialize because the level of complexity in newer technology is extremely high, and to get anywhere it is necessary to focus on a small but very detailed slice of the pie.

The only really valid point is that information formerly available in journals is now available online. But I cannot say that I have seen a noticeable uptick in research being done by non-Ph.D.s despite this widespread availability, so I think it's at least premature to conclude that you can develop the same level of expertise as an autodidact.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#18
post #12

I feel like there's more to this story than what the article and charts show. For example, what's the total number of PhD students over time? Has there been an increase in PhD students relative to demand so that naturally there will be less PhD graduates without immediate employment?

Well, if by "demand" you mean tenure-track faculty jobs, there's a plot in the article of that. The answer, which as far as I know is applicable across all fields, is that the number of PhD graduates have risen dramatically while the amount of tenure-track jobs are flatlined or even dropping.

Unless job demand is driven by exponential growth (like physics during the Cold War), it's simple math to conclude that every professor can graduate one Ph.D. student during his entire career for the job situation to be sustainable. Most probably graduate an order of magnitude more than that. (This of course ignores non-academic jobs and the question whether getting a Ph.D. is a good investment for such jobs.)

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#19
post #15

In some areas like biotech, a PhD is almost a union card to work in large corporations doing R&D. Without it, sadly, you won't be taken seriously.

Ph.D. bigotry is an artifact of the bad job market, which has just been getting worse for the past 30 years.

There used to be BA-level research jobs. There still are. They're just now filled by PhDs. Basic research is pretty much gone.

Pedigree bigotry is the natural reaction of a society or subculture in decline. When the future is hopeless and the present is uninspiring, people obsess about the past. PhD Bigotry is a way for the brilliant but passed-over (through no fault of their own) to reminisce about the days when they were young and clueless and thought society-at-large gave a shit about anything other than crass commercialism.

Personally, I prefer to bet on the future. Simply due to resource limitations, we'll need to reinvest in basic research if we don't want human extinction (or at least the collapse of civilization). But that is a bet, and we're going to have to demolish some entrenched players in order to have one.

Re: Employment rates for STEM Ph.D.s are down or stagnant across the board

#20
post #17

Does anyone know what happened in Physics in the early 2000s? The number "Employed" spikes from ~30% to ~40% in a very short time span and then falls rapidly to ~20: http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/articles/business/mon...

I wish they would draw those graphs in a more honest way. Now it looks like there's a very high time resolution when in fact there's one data point per year and they've done some spline fitting to them...

It looks like it's the 2001 data point that has a higher value. I'm not sure what happened in 2001, and without knowing if academic or industry jobs are responsible it's hard to guess, but it would be interesting to see if there was a corresponding uptick in funding for physics research grants at that time.

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