“You're not allowed science any more” • Hacker News Board

Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#151

Post by cbhl » Thu, Jul 24, 2014, 9:03 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #73

cbhl wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC it's fairly common nowadays to administer the vaccine to children in Canada/US. The main trade-off I've seen is that a small percentage of people who get the vaccine end up with pox at the age of 20-30 where the complications (pox on internal organs) can require hospitalization and/or cause death. The flip side being, of course, that a small percentage of people infected with chicken pox as kids also require hos…

Are you talking about something other than shingles? This study seems credible enough (the Web MD article even manages to discuss how they dealt with several obvious confounding factors): http://www.webmd.com/children/vaccines/news/20131202/chicken... The CDC says shingles is less common in vaccinated individuals (under "Other safety information"): http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccines/varicella/

My impression is that shingles is technically "reactivation" of the pox virus; i.e. you need to have had chicken pox first.

I was referring to cases where someone has received the chicken pox vaccine but still gets sick with the chicken pox later in life.

Granted, it also looks like the vaccine is made from actual virus? So maybe it is shingles after all. I don't science enough to say.

Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#152

Post by maxerickson » Thu, Jul 24, 2014, 9:46 PM UTC

cbhl wrote: post #151

maxerickson wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you talking about something other than shingles? This study seems credible enough (the Web MD article even manages to discuss how they dealt with several obvious confounding factors): http://www.webmd.com/children/vaccines/news/20131202/chicken... The CDC says shingles is less common in vaccinated individuals (under "Other safety information"): http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccines/varicella/

My impression is that shingles is technically "reactivation" of the pox virus; i.e. you need to have had chicken pox first. I was referring to cases where someone has received the chicken pox vaccine but still gets sick with the chicken pox later in life. Granted, it also looks like the vaccine is made from actual virus? So maybe it is shingles after all. I don't science enough to say.

It's definitely worse to get your first infection of the virus as an adult.

In the looking I've done today, I haven't seen anything real definitive about whether the vaccine makes this more likely or not.

Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#153

Post by OrwellianChild » Thu, Jul 24, 2014, 10:22 PM UTC

ddalex wrote: post #35

This is beyond stupid. You can't explain something, so you ban the person from having a say so. I'm terrible afraid of people thinking that this is the way to go. As a doctor, which I am not, I would've said: the danger of your children dying or being crippled by a preventable disease is about 1000 times the risk of having an adverse reaction to the vaccine. Furthermore, I can guarantee that the vaccine will not caus…

Despite being adamantly pro-vaccine myself, I had a very similar reaction... "Making decisions for people" doesn't strike me as an acceptable solution unless the harm you are doing has pretty serious externalities. The "science ban" is nothing more than excessive and fanciful retribution to was was most assuredly a frustrating conversation.

"You are more likely to crash your car on the way home from this office than experience harm from this vaccine." is a pretty succinct explanation invoking relative risk.

I understand the frustrations that lead to doctor wanting to write this sort of fan fiction... I just wish they'd try harder to make the "hero" doctor from the story a more sympathetic character by trying much, much harder to sway the mother's point of view.

Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#154

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 24, 2014, 10:30 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#155

Post by xrange » Thu, Jul 24, 2014, 11:15 PM UTC

tormeh wrote: post #121

dictum wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, keeping the trains running on time did work. — The nice thing about mentioning Mussolini is that there's no Godwin Police to immediately point at you.

No, I don't think that if we let the government restrict or influence our actions when it comes to unhealthy habits next thing we know we'll all be living in fascist Italy. Fascinatingly, if you read Wikipedia's article about fascist Italy [0] Mussolini's rise to power sounds more like something the war-mongerers ("our president is weak") on Fox News would support than what a nanny-state advocate would support. [0]:…

It is quite surprising that a book written 60 years ago could still seem so timely in describing how well meaning central planning could eventually lead to tyrrany.

https://www.google.com/#q=the+road+to+serfdom

...although I guess the saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" is even older.

Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#156

Post by GhotiFish » Fri, Jul 25, 2014, 1:18 AM UTC

suprgeek wrote: post #36

I think we should be making a financial/societal incentive to do the right thing if the science is settled enough. The trouble with the view presented here is that sure the children get the vaccine due to this hypothetical rule. what happens when later the children get a severe cold (say) and the mom who remembers the previous visit thinks - bloody doctors I will just keep my kid home and pray for him to get better?…

>I bet there will be much more incentive to really read up on the Science.

You mean capitulate to a forced perspective?

If she learned fundamental statistic, pored through paper after paper, found errors and miscalculations, would she get her money back? No, so ignorant or not is irrelevant.

Your utopia is terrifying.

Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#157

Post by threatofrain » Fri, Jul 25, 2014, 2:53 AM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #81

sliverstorm wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So when it comes to anti-vaxxers, the problem is simply that the scientific community simply hasn't been accommodating enough? It's good to know that, yet again the fault does not lie with the common man. It is always someone else's fault.

It's not a question of accommodation; it's about accessibility. The anti-vaxxers offered better UX for many who felt shut out from scientific knowledge. The fault does technically lie with the common man in the sense that he behaves the way he does. But we KNOW that he behaves a certain way, and further we have the knowledge necessary to mitigate the effects of those deleterious behaviors and grant the people knowled…

Fully committing to this UX analogy would mean for the doctor to pretend that his medicine comes from a religious framework, simply because it's more user-friendly.

Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#158

Post by gretful » Fri, Jul 25, 2014, 4:13 AM UTC

Quick question: how many of you are against the flood of illegal immigrants making their way into the US? If you're worried about killing herd immunity, you should really be voicing your discontent over both the GOP and Democrat parties encouraging this with their amnesty plans.

Here's just one incident of an illegal bringing disease into the US:

http://news.yahoo.com/arrest-warrant-issued-man-tuberculosis...

Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#159

Post by lotsofmangos » Fri, Jul 25, 2014, 4:15 AM UTC

gretful wrote: post #158

Quick question: how many of you are against the flood of illegal immigrants making their way into the US? If you're worried about killing herd immunity, you should really be voicing your discontent over both the GOP and Democrat parties encouraging this with their amnesty plans. Here's just one incident of an illegal bringing disease into the US: http://news.yahoo.com/arrest-warrant-issued-man-tuberculosis...

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#160

Post by thatjoist » Fri, Jul 25, 2014, 4:28 AM UTC

gretful wrote: post #158

Quick question: how many of you are against the flood of illegal immigrants making their way into the US? If you're worried about killing herd immunity, you should really be voicing your discontent over both the GOP and Democrat parties encouraging this with their amnesty plans. Here's just one incident of an illegal bringing disease into the US: http://news.yahoo.com/arrest-warrant-issued-man-tuberculosis...

Nice strawman, "if you're against X you MUST be against Y".

What really matters is the cost-to-benefit ratio. A jab in the arm vs denying someone immigration, decide whatever you want but it's a sliding scale, not black-and-white.