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“You're not allowed science any more”

nature.com

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Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#31

Post by autokad »

lazyant wrote: post #17
spindritf wrote: post #3

I have spotted this totalitarian streak among some of my friends who went to med school. We should ban smoking, force everyone to do this or that. As bad as they can be, we're probably better off with lawyers in charge.

People die because some idiot parent didn't vaccinated their children, so I say yes, enforce it or don't live in society, go to some isolated island because you are causing harm, it's as totalitarian as allowing people to play Russian roulette with other people's children (actually you'd go to jail so I think we're too lenient with these parents).

your child has more chance of dying by going to the morning bus stop than their child does of dying from not being vaccinated. in fact, i'd bet your child has a better chance of dying by catching the flu from a vaccinated child than some other child not vaccinated by MMR.

i understand if someone doesn't want their child vaccinated and they can't go to public school, but forcing people is another thing, even if it is 'for their own good'.

Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#32

Post by gress »

lazyant wrote: post #17
spindritf wrote: post #3

I have spotted this totalitarian streak among some of my friends who went to med school. We should ban smoking, force everyone to do this or that. As bad as they can be, we're probably better off with lawyers in charge.

People die because some idiot parent didn't vaccinated their children, so I say yes, enforce it or don't live in society, go to some isolated island because you are causing harm, it's as totalitarian as allowing people to play Russian roulette with other people's children (actually you'd go to jail so I think we're too lenient with these parents).

Are you claiming that people never die because of bad law or bad science?

Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#33

Post by natophonic »

spindritf wrote: post #3

I have spotted this totalitarian streak among some of my friends who went to med school. We should ban smoking, force everyone to do this or that. As bad as they can be, we're probably better off with lawyers in charge.

I'm not sure if it's a culture encouraged at med school, but I certainly have met many a doctor with a mighty god complex. Not that that's exactly rare in the computer science / software engineering world either.

Also, I'm sure we could find people who'd gleefully re-imagine this fantasy story as one where a parent refuses to read the religious tracts being offered to them by a school principal, resulting in the kids being sent to mandatory bible study.

Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#34

Post by autokad »

jonnathanson wrote: post #12
sebular wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sarcastic metaphor and the exasperation that motivates it comes after centuries of scientists being ridiculed, persecuted, and even killed by ignorant people.

Right, which is all the more reason to take the high road. To set a better example. Also, because trading vitriol with religious fanatics and ignorants accomplishes nothing. Knowledge is the antidote to ignorance. Not smugness, defensiveness, or indignation (well-justified though all of those things might be).

A+

Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#35

Post by ddalex »

This is beyond stupid. You can't explain something, so you ban the person from having a say so. I'm terrible afraid of people thinking that this is the way to go.

As a doctor, which I am not, I would've said: the danger of your children dying or being crippled by a preventable disease is about 1000 times the risk of having an adverse reaction to the vaccine. Furthermore, I can guarantee that the vaccine will not cause autism.

This is what I tell my "anti vac" acquittance, because I can't say I'm friends with morons. But being a moron doesn't preclude the right to understand what's actually happening and what the risks are when making a decision, even if you refrained in the past to educate yourself.

But it's hard to educate, so the author would just ban the discussion altogether. You, the author, are no better than the ones to which you would ban explanations and discussion.

Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#36

Post by suprgeek »

I think we should be making a financial/societal incentive to do the right thing if the science is settled enough.

The trouble with the view presented here is that sure the children get the vaccine due to this hypothetical rule. what happens when later the children get a severe cold (say) and the mom who remembers the previous visit thinks - bloody doctors I will just keep my kid home and pray for him to get better?

Much better approach: "Ok Sacha since you declined the vaccination now I have to report it to all medical insurers. Your family insurance just doubled."

At school: "Sacha your kids are not vaccinated and we do not admit any students not vaccinated."

Apartment: "Ok Sacha your kids are not vaccinated (per this website where we can query); we will need to charge you a fee that is contributed to our residents' medical fund to cover the risk of housing you."

If you really truly start to hurt in the pocketbook, I bet there will be much more incentive to really read up on the Science.

Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#37

Post by [deleted] »

sbhere wrote: post #21
wmeredith wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being reductive, The refusal to read the pamplet while demanding impossible assurances is symbolic of the willfull idiocy of the scientific illiterate making impossible demands on society.

The mother in the narrative is requesting to be informed. A pamphlet does not inform, although it may. Face-to-face conversation has the opportunity for an asker to ask questions for an authority on the matter to answer. However, more to the point: is this pamphlet science or marketing? Many such pamphlets about medicine blur that line quite well...

[deleted]

Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#38

Post by kstenerud »

aganders3 wrote: post #27
kstenerud wrote: post #15

This is so telling. The sheer arrogance is plainly visible, as is the doctor's complete lack of empathy. There are plenty of ways to motivate people, and this is most certainly not a good one. You don't get a mule to move by pushing it.

I agree, but consider that it's on Nature.com and the expected audience. This was an entertaining read for those who have felt such frustration, but it's ultimately unhelpful as a published article. I did appreciate the point about being proud to be bad at math. I think that attitude is damaging and probably deserves a (more reasoned) article of its own.

Except that those who are "proud to be bad at math" exude pride because they've given up, but don't want to feel like a failure. In other words, all attempts at math education have so far failed them, and they have succumbed to learned helplessness.

When people are consistently frustrated using your website, you'd normally look into the UX so that you can make a smoother experience. You then test to make sure your changes actually made your site better. Math and science education is no different, except that those in charge tend to treat it like the bad old UNIX days of "If it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand" and "RTFM".

Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#39

Post by avmich »

ddalex wrote: post #35

This is beyond stupid. You can't explain something, so you ban the person from having a say so. I'm terrible afraid of people thinking that this is the way to go. As a doctor, which I am not, I would've said: the danger of your children dying or being crippled by a preventable disease is about 1000 times the risk of having an adverse reaction to the vaccine. Furthermore, I can guarantee that the vaccine will not caus…

I think you didn't get the story.

Re: “You're not allowed science any more”

#40

Post by untothebreach »

jstanek wrote: post #28
VikingCoder wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, but you're wrong. You're right - we shouldn't celebrate alienating people who need help. You're wrong, because there is no argument that can convince someone who doesn't care about evidence. So, please forgive us our gallows humor about this. After all, these people are content in risking the health of MY child on their Jenny McCarthy-inspired HUNCH that vaccines are bad. If anti-vaccine folks were only…

If your child is vaccinated, they aren't really at significant risk of catching a preventable infection from an unvaccinated child, since that's the sort of thing vaccines are designed to prevent. This isn't to say that anti-vax is a rational position, but I don't think (disclaimer, I'm not a medical professional) it puts vaccinated children at additional risk.

Vaccines by themselves are not 100% effective (see the Measles outbreak from earlier this year [1]). The additional benefit of Herd Immunity[2] helps to increase the effectiveness, which is at risk of being lost the more the anti-vax movement gains traction.

1: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6322a4.htm 2: http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/pages/communityimmunity.aspx

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