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But presumably not a situation where the attackers mistakenly thought they were shooting down an aircraft that was about to attack them.
They definitely thought it was an Ukrainian military transport plane. I don't see how the distinction between enemy military transport plane and enemy fighter/bomber is of any importance here.
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And if we are going back to the times of Polish annexation we can remember Polish people robbing Russia, burning Moscow, trying to put Polish dude on the throne and best part - exploitation of Ukrainians :). And yes, Poland is also known for imperial ambitions. Generally European history is full of wars and mutual blame. Take UK for example - conquered by French and ruled by German dynasty. So once again, please, sto…
That's what we're doing. But Russia again started changing borders of our neighbor. This is scary stuff.
Ukrainian crisis is the result of building nationalistic state in the country with two different cultures, frequently incompatible. And also grave incompetence of the Ukrainian government leading to escalation of the conflict.
Poland and Baltic states - these countries are outright hostile toward Russia, yes, it has historical reasons. But now it's easier to trade and use economic power than to conquer and control territory. These countries are part of EU, and Russia will never - until forced - engage in any military confrontation with them.
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It wasn't proved, but there is not a believable alternative scenario. There are videos of transported missiles, intercepted calls, orders of obstructing access to crash site... John Kerry even says there is "Enormous amount of evidence" for that scenario. Still not 100% sure, but 99% yes.
videos of transported missiles, intercepted calls, orders of obstructing access to crash site... But do they specifically incriminate one side?
So the reasonable thing to do now is to wait for ICAO verdict. Regardless of who actually hit the plane, Ukraine is still to blame for directing it to fly over the war zone.
This is one of the typical rants by Russian immigrant who enjoyed top quality free education in USSR/Russia which made his success possible (+ no student loans), left during turmoil of 1990-2000s and still judging Russia on that bad memories basis. Article is full of clichés and gives general FOX news feel while reading. I lived in Moscow in 2011 and I'm part of that creative class he mentions and no one in my social…
What's your plan? How do you organize? How do you persuade people? How do you plan on gaining power peacefully?
> and progress so far proves that it's working.
What's your track record? How do you measure progress? This post-2006 Putin era can be just a temporary setback, but since he (and the Kremlin and the Duma) rolled back so many laws and principles, that it seems to be a seriously hard blow, very hard to stand up from for at least a generation to come, and when progress will happen, it'll be probably because of exogenous factors encouraged/forced it.
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They definitely thought it was an Ukrainian military transport plane. I don't see how the distinction between enemy military transport plane and enemy fighter/bomber is of any importance here.
How do you know what "they" thought?
Anyway that's not the point, the point is that even if (people may still doubt) the rebels downed the plane, at worst they thought of it as of an Ukrainian military plane, ie they had no intention to kill noncombatants, it was definitely not an 'act of terrorism' as Ukrainian govt wants to paint it.
I have quite a few problems with Western media stating that it's Putin's fault. - There is a lack of motive (seriously why would he?) - There is a lack of identity (if it were the Separatists, are they really controlled by Putin to that degree?) - The murder weapon happens to also be in the hand of the Ukrainian army (19 systems, 3 of them stationed in the range of the crash site) [2] - The Ukrainian air control obvi…
> lack of motive It was most likely a mistake. > There is a lack of identity (if it were the Separatists, are they really controlled by Putin to that degree?) Top members of the rebels group, including the leader, are Russian citizens and former members of the FSB. http://20committee.com/2014/07/19/donetsk-rebels-and-russian... > The murder weapon happens to also be in the hand of the Ukrainian army (19 systems, 3 of…
Motive: The motive "mistake" is a motive that works for both sides.
Identity: The membership in the groups "Russian" and "former FSB" is at most an indication. "All former FSB members that are Russian shoot down passenger air planes" holds as much as "All Germans kill jews" and "All jews kill Palestinians"
Murder weapon: The thing is, I assume Western media is as biased as Russian media. The very fact they rarely even consider Ukrainian govt participation (as they should also with the Maidan sniper shootings) makes me wonder what side I should trust less.
This view is partially based on the WMD allegations in Iraq and the use of chemical weapons by Assad, both of which can be considered "false flags". Re Assad, see http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/world/middleeast/new-study...
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This article isn't actually about the shooting down of any flights. It's about the more general way the Russian government operates. Maybe it would have been a better article had it not mentioned any flights, lest the conversation be derailed by debate over the causes & outcomes of the recent tragedy.
> This article isn't actually about the shooting down of any flights. Have you read it? It actually writes: "The mass murder of passengers & crew of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 using Russian’s weapons and (most likely) by hands of Russian military squad exposed to the world that Russia is now complicit in committing crimes against humanity." Now what do you think about proved US and Ukrainian plane shootings? Aren't…
Absolutely and it's unlikely that those incidents resulted in sanctions against those countries.
It just highlights how hypercritical the US, Ukraine and the rest of the international community are.
All three of these states commit crimes - none of them should be excused.
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> This article isn't actually about the shooting down of any flights. Have you read it? It actually writes: "The mass murder of passengers & crew of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 using Russian’s weapons and (most likely) by hands of Russian military squad exposed to the world that Russia is now complicit in committing crimes against humanity." Now what do you think about proved US and Ukrainian plane shootings? Aren't…
>Aren't they crimes? Absolutely and it's unlikely that those incidents resulted in sanctions against those countries. It just highlights how hypercritical the US, Ukraine and the rest of the international community are. All three of these states commit crimes - none of them should be excused.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_(19...
"on February 3, 1998, near the Italian town of Cavalese, a ski resort in the Dolomites" "Twenty people died when a United States Marine Corps EA-6B Prowler aircraft cut a cable supporting a gondola of an aerial tramway." "the subsequent acquittal of the pilots, strained relations between the United States and Italy."
Or is this "just a human error"? Where to draw the line?
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How do you know what "they" thought?
Version about rebels taking passenger plane for AN-26 seems plausible, considering that rebels themselves seemed to believe it in the first minutes after the event (I am judging by the reaction of their mouthpieces on Russian internet which I happened to see with my own eyes). Anyway that's not the point, the point is that even if (people may still doubt) the rebels downed the plane, at worst they thought of it as of…
This is one of the typical rants by Russian immigrant who enjoyed top quality free education in USSR/Russia which made his success possible (+ no student loans), left during turmoil of 1990-2000s and still judging Russia on that bad memories basis. Article is full of clichés and gives general FOX news feel while reading. I lived in Moscow in 2011 and I'm part of that creative class he mentions and no one in my social…