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U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

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Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#91

Post by lgleason »

winter_blue wrote: post #71
ak217 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a zero sum game for you and the H-1B visa holders. The H-1B and other skilled labor visas select for individuals who are intelligent, mobile, and entrepreneurial. Those individuals and their families are here temporarily unless they can secure a green card (a tremendously difficult process that requires limiting their employment choices, handicapping them in their earning potential compared to you). Most A…

> Most Americans expressing your sentiment have no idea how much hassle immigrants have to go through in this process or every time they cross the border. Exactly. Most Americans don't seem to know how incredibly hard it is to immigrate to this country. They think it's as easy today as it was for their ancestors who came here a hundred years or so ago. The fact is, if you are not seeking refugee or asylee status, and…

A lot of us are not against immigration. The problem is that the current system is broken and the H1B is not the solution. It can be used to benefit everybody, but the current solutions are not.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#92

Post by lgleason »

mavelikara wrote: post #35
lgleason wrote: post #17

Raising the H1B cap has everything to do with creating downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. If you are in tech in the US and don't mind making less money for what you do keep supporting legislation for more H1B's. Just don't complain when you beco…

There are good reasons to believe that raising the number of H-1Bs create a downward pressure on wages. Yet, as cynicalkane mentions here, there are good reasons to believe that letting more smart people work on tech is beneficial for almost everyone involved. The solution, IMO, is to try remove causes of wage depreciation due to H-1Bs. Right now, tying the petition (and GC) to the employer is the primary cause for t…

If you removed the downward pressure incentive on wages you would have few people that would be against the H1B's. The trick is how.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#93

Post by curiousDog »

pandaman wrote: post #40
curiousDog wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with the downward pressure point. Personally, i think its a good thing. American companies (including start-ups) now have a larger pool of talent to hire from without paying Wall street salaries. However, I disagree that H1Bs are somehow cheaper. I was paid the same wage as my American counter-parts when I was at AMZN.

I am curious how do you know that. The H1B's wage is public record but what about your American counter-parts? The whole "H1Bs are getting the same salary" is very popular but I have not seen it supported by anything. It also seems contradictory to common sense since H1B's have the lowest bargaining power of all possible workers. How can they manage to negotiate salaries on the same level as Americans? PS. I had been…

Where did you work? I can't speak for the body shopping places. In my case, I was hired straight out of college and I compared offers with a few American friends. Also, I had a few close American Frieds I trust.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#94

Post by mnglkhn2 »

nitrogen wrote: post #78
winter_blue wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most Americans expressing your sentiment have no idea how much hassle immigrants have to go through in this process or every time they cross the border. Exactly. Most Americans don't seem to know how incredibly hard it is to immigrate to this country. They think it's as easy today as it was for their ancestors who came here a hundred years or so ago. The fact is, if you are not seeking refugee or asylee status, and…

One doesn't have to be racist to see the potential hypocrisy of laying off thousands of employees while claiming to be unable to hire locally. Arguments to the contrary might be better served by discussing why those employees couldn't do what an expanded allotment of H1Bs could.

Here are a few arguments: 1. 12k out of the 18k employees let go are from Nokia, hence not in US 2. Out of the 6k presumably US employees let go, we don't know their functions: marketing, sales, etc. We just assume in bulk they are IT devs. 3. Nobody put on the table how many H1Bs does MS currently have on its workforce and at which annual rate do they bring in new H1Bs. It looks like MS has somewhere between 2-3k annual H1Bs. 4. Does anybody mention how many are H1Bs out of those 6k employees that were let go?

Unless we discuss this with hard numbers in front of us, it is just arguing from our internal fears/demons.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#95

Post by winter_blue »

lgleason wrote: post #91
winter_blue wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most Americans expressing your sentiment have no idea how much hassle immigrants have to go through in this process or every time they cross the border. Exactly. Most Americans don't seem to know how incredibly hard it is to immigrate to this country. They think it's as easy today as it was for their ancestors who came here a hundred years or so ago. The fact is, if you are not seeking refugee or asylee status, and…

A lot of us are not against immigration. The problem is that the current system is broken and the H1B is not the solution. It can be used to benefit everybody, but the current solutions are not.

To actively work against, and advocate against the only existing current pathway to permanent residency (i.e. EB-based green cards) for the vast majority of highly-skilled immigrants, without proposing a fix first, just isn't right.

You know how Congress works. If you had your way, and the US government ceased issuing H-1B visas, you'd see a significant drop in EB-based green card applications. Far fewer companies would be applying for them. That's because, under the current system, an H-1B allows a company to temporarily hire someone, assess their performance, and decide whether they really want to sponsor them for permanent residence. You'd likely get lower-quality immigrants (as the companies haven't had a chance to fully assess them), and most likely would disproportionately favor mutlinational companies with offices elsewhere.

If you don't fix the system first, you'll end up with a even more broken immigration system. (I'm sure anti-immigrant types would love that though.)

If you want to fix things, fight for an easier pathway for skilled immigrants to come to the US (like an easier/quicker route to permanent residency), before fighting to shut down what is currently the sole vehicle to the U.S. for the vast majority of people who receive EB-based green cards.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#96

Post by cpher »

cynicalkane wrote: post #64
jasonlotito wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now you are going to rightfully be down voted for insulting the rest of us by complaining about being down voted. Your comment as it stands now, should be down voted. You aren't new to HN. You know this is wrong. Don't do it.

I've been here long enough to see this argument before, yes. I feel the same as I do now: that if it looks like people are using the downvote as an "I disagree" or "I don't like you" button, people are entitled to call this out and ask for an explanation. If no good explanation is forthcoming, this suggests the downvoters might be in error.

I don't think he was telling you personally to STFU, but rather making the argument that if you really want immigrants you should argue for green cards, not H1Bs which give the employer too much control. I think you mis-read what he wrote. BTW, I've upvoted you even though we "disagree."

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#97

Post by lgleason »

jakejake wrote: post #51
lgleason wrote: post #17

Raising the H1B cap has everything to do with creating downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. If you are in tech in the US and don't mind making less money for what you do keep supporting legislation for more H1B's. Just don't complain when you beco…

The part about being a commodity, wearing business casual and not working remote is something that I experienced early in my career. So my thoughts and fears of that time keep me motivated. All of us in tech right now are pretty lucky, but I suspect there are people in the industry that never experienced groveling for a job or having to toe the line. The idea of having to put on a tie or show up at exactly 9am is sim…

I remember those days and am really hoping that we don't end up back in that situation. Even as recently as 5 years ago I saw a shop that did exactly that in the gift card space here in the US. They were notorious for their semi business dress code, crazy hours, uncompetitive pay, culture of fear and had more H1B's than any other place I had ever seen.

If anybody spoke up or didn't tow the line they were fired. I took a short term contract there during the peak of the recession and quickly moved on to something else, but the H1B's had no choice. Because of the economy a lot of Americans stayed because it wasn't obvious that there were other choices to them given the recession.

When I was a kid my dad told me that in this capitalistic society, in business expect people to treat you the way they can afford to treat you. In the case of this company they could afford to tread you poorly at that point in time and they did. Was it wrong, yes. But if you are a commodity that has no options but to either get fired or shut up and tow the line more companies than not will treat you that way.

H1B's are basically another form of indentured servitude the way they are currently implemented in the US. I'm not sure how to change that, but increasing their numbers is not the answer and is only going to make thing worse for everyone.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#98

Post by mrsharpoblunto »

As someone going through the US immigration process at the moment, the real issue as far as immigration reform goes should not be raising the H-1B cap, but rather fixing the insane greencard backlog. At the moment its pretty common for people to have to spend over a decade waiting in a legal limbo with an uncertain future.

In addition to this, requiring companies to sponsor greencards for all H1-B workers would go a long way toward stopping those who are simply looking for cheap captive labour and would leave the pool open to those companies who are legitimately looking for skilled workers in good faith.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#99

Post by jarsin »

ntakasaki wrote: post #76
lgleason wrote: post #17

Raising the H1B cap has everything to do with creating downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. If you are in tech in the US and don't mind making less money for what you do keep supporting legislation for more H1B's. Just don't complain when you beco…

>If they did then the average Wal-Mart worker would be making a lot more and have much better benefits. But tech people seem quite okay with buying things made in China, and third world countries. When was the last time someone bought a router that was 40% more expensive but made in the USA? How many of the people who upvoted your comment made it the top comment ever check for a Made in USA sticker for their clothes…

"Restricting H1B visas will increase offshoring"

Actually something I have seen twice now and heard about being a common occurrence is H1-B people come here. Get sent home eventually after they are all trained up by the company.

Then they obtain an offshore contract with the company and any of there other contacts they made while they were here.

So its a big win for the company because they get someone offshore that is trained in their ways and now that they are offshore they work for even less than when they were here.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#100

Post by esrauch »

humanrebar wrote: post #73
SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a computing specialist who makes a very generous income from a large US employer, I am an expert in a specific technology. I've also been in the position of trying to hire developers with similar skill sets. As a result, I might bring a slightly different perspective. I am a US citizen. As you point out, I don't need to dress "business casual" and I can (and do) work remotely, and the pay is good. But in some spec…

> I hear stories of developers making $500k+ per year, or getting job offers worth millions. At that level, then yes, I think we could stand to see a bit of downward pressure on salaries. Why? If some developer jobs are as hard as brain surgery, why shouldn't those developers be paid as much as brain surgeons? Not capping wages also encourages employers to rethink their employment strategies. Maybe that sort of emplo…

> why shouldn't those developers be paid as much as brain surgeons?

Do they actually make that much? Should they get paid that much if they do?

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