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Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

csmonitor.com

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Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#81

Post by jqm »

rosser wrote: post #74
cobrausn wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me spell it out for you then - Ukraine had no interest in shooting down it's own cargo plane. Russia would not likely risk firing a missile from within it's own territory. Who does that leave us? Maybe the people who claim ownership of the space, have the means, and are tweeting about their supposed AN-26 shootdowns? If this is trolling, it's bad trolling.

Insert suggestion of false-flag operation in 3, 2, 1...

Well, if there hadn't been any apparent false flag operations in recent times that _would be a ridiculous thing to suggest.

As it is, who knows? Sites can be hacked, that we know. And we know some parties have continued interest in stirring up trouble in the region.

Was it a false flag operation? Probably not. But if we see a party trying to take advantage of the situation, or escalate conflict over the situation, it will be a bit more suspicious, and that suggestion may be worth considering.

If it was a military error it was a military error. But if it was indeed parties with economic interests destroying human lives in order to court opinion... well that would be despicable and of the lowest order of criminality.

Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#82

Post by greglindahl »

dang wrote: post #79
greglindahl wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and I'm glad that I was allowed to change the title of the article to indicate the reason why this is relevant to HN. Edit2: and now the title got reverted to the article title, which obscures what's interesting to HN readers. Oh well, inflexible policy in action. EDIT: Given the poor quality of the discussion, I now regret posting this link. Very little discussion of the Wayback machine and how this is a new an…

Ok, we'll change the title back again. I don't think this thread was destined to be very substantive, though. The topic is too hot, for more than one meaning of "hot".

Thanks, dang. In hindsight, yeah, this was not a good thing to post, even if it is very interesting that the Wayback Machine can play this kind of role.

Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#83

Post by jdotjdot »

bane wrote: post #65
icebraining wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone lives in a hole so deep that they haven't heard about this, I'd say it won't make much of a difference for them. I haven't flagged this, but I think you're overestimating the importance of the presence of this story on HN.

The value HN brings to a story like this is the in-depth, rational analysis that's much better than the news can muster. Already in the wayback thread on this, I've discovered a news tracking startup and an in depth discussion for people who take this exact flight and route. This wasn't a plane passing between Baghdad and Kabul or some similar dangerous route. There's been a couple of other flying related accidents t…

Honestly, this was a great reply until that last sentence. I recommend you remove it.

Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#84

Post by aaron695 »

bane wrote: post #3

Why was the previous thread about this killed? I know it's off topic for HN, but it is pretty major fucking news. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8049325 edit honestly, if you're flagging this story, you may as well turn in your human card edit2 so this has stirred up something since I'm watching my karma flutter up and down like a butterfly's wings.

> honestly, if you're flagging this story, you may as well turn in your human card

No a real human cares about the millions of human beings who die of simple diseases all the time that for starters we could personally donate too and save a few lives.

And for seconds have a positive benefit raising awareness to .

This story is pure voyeurism. We'll have no affect on knowing this stuff especially knowing it first. Which I have no problem with, it is very interesting to see what will happen. I upped it and found links in this thread very interesting.

But no, it's nothing about being a good moral human being.

Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#85

Post by dang »

greglindahl wrote: post #82
dang wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, we'll change the title back again. I don't think this thread was destined to be very substantive, though. The topic is too hot, for more than one meaning of "hot".

Thanks, dang. In hindsight, yeah, this was not a good thing to post, even if it is very interesting that the Wayback Machine can play this kind of role.

We do sometimes edit mainstream press headlines to replace a generic phrase (like "web") with a technical name (in this case, "wayback machine" or maybe "internet archive") that HN readers are comfortable with. So your edit was fine. We just didn't notice that right away.

Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#86

Post by hugh4life »

I don't want to get into the politics, but I wonder about the algorithm the Wayback Machine uses to decide what to cache and if intel agencies manipulate it so the WM can be used for PR purposes.

"It is possible that the WM website could have been spoofed somehow to create these records, but it would not be easily done. To do so would either require hacking WM and creating the new records within its system, or spoofing the records by tricking WM into thinking it was accessing Girkin's page when it was actually accessing a third-party site. Both possibilities would be difficult to carry out."

Would it really be that hard?

Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#87

Post by bane »

jdotjdot wrote: post #83
bane wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value HN brings to a story like this is the in-depth, rational analysis that's much better than the news can muster. Already in the wayback thread on this, I've discovered a news tracking startup and an in depth discussion for people who take this exact flight and route. This wasn't a plane passing between Baghdad and Kabul or some similar dangerous route. There's been a couple of other flying related accidents t…

Honestly, this was a great reply until that last sentence. I recommend you remove it.

I don't know who's downvoting you. I removed it, you were absolutely right and I let emotions grab hold.

Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#88

Post by awalton »

dredmorbius wrote: post #66
austenallred wrote: post #5

It's interesting how the right to be forgotten seems so desirable, yet when something like this happens it's great that no one can cover up their tracks. Now the pro-Russian separists are trying to delete all sorts of info. We have this tweet about them getting a bunch of anti-aircraft missiles ( http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:NF6E5FC... ), showing off their new toys ( https://twitter.com/grassw…

It's interesting how the right to be forgotten seems so desirable Sorry, but this is a complete mischaracterization of the right. I've been having the same conversation with Yonatan Zunger on G+, he tried cracking a similar joke there. https://plus.google.com/u/0/+YonatanZunger/posts/856eZ9hWtm3 It's a flagrantly specious argument. Compelling public right to know in an international incident, attack on the public, by…

> That passes any reasonable grounds for denying an RTBF request.

That passes your definition of reasonable grounds.

The problem is that there doesn't exist an established "reasonable grounds" in this area, period. There is no legal test as to what is "reasonable." It's left up to the likes of Google to decide what records society keeps on who. And that's absolutely flabberghasting.

Within a month of this "right" being instated, evil people were already using it to cover their tracks, and that's a Fact that cannot be ignored.

Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#89

Post by [deleted] »

aaron695 wrote: post #84
bane wrote: post #3

Why was the previous thread about this killed? I know it's off topic for HN, but it is pretty major fucking news. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8049325 edit honestly, if you're flagging this story, you may as well turn in your human card edit2 so this has stirred up something since I'm watching my karma flutter up and down like a butterfly's wings.

> honestly, if you're flagging this story, you may as well turn in your human card No a real human cares about the millions of human beings who die of simple diseases all the time that for starters we could personally donate too and save a few lives. And for seconds have a positive benefit raising awareness to . This story is pure voyeurism. We'll have no affect on knowing this stuff especially knowing it first. Whic…

[deleted]

Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#90

Post by happyscrappy »

fleitz wrote: post #47
happyscrappy wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is pretty clear if you listen to nterviews, that the pro-russian rebels are mostly morons. With friends like that who needs enemies.

Yeah, no kidding they should be on America's Dumbest Criminals.

Well, Russia's dumbest. Putin's stooges really fucked up on this one.
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