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Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

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Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#71

Post by trhway »

gwern wrote: post #8
austenallred wrote: post #5

It's interesting how the right to be forgotten seems so desirable, yet when something like this happens it's great that no one can cover up their tracks. Now the pro-Russian separists are trying to delete all sorts of info. We have this tweet about them getting a bunch of anti-aircraft missiles ( http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:NF6E5FC... ), showing off their new toys ( https://twitter.com/grassw…

> It's interesting how the right to be forgotten seems so desirable, yet when something like this happens it's great that no one can cover up their tracks. Now the pro-Russian separists are trying to delete all sorts of info. Are war crimes what 'right to be forgotten' is all about?

However horrific the civilian plane's shooting down is, i don't think accidental shoot down would qualify as a war crime. If anything, the celebratory message about supposed successful shooting down of one more military cargo plane confirms that the rebels, it it were rebels' missile, were intending to shoot at an enemy military target .

Wrt. the right [more precisely lack of it] to be forgotten and war crimes : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Non-Applicabi...

Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#72

Post by kghose »

dredmorbius wrote: post #66
austenallred wrote: post #5

It's interesting how the right to be forgotten seems so desirable, yet when something like this happens it's great that no one can cover up their tracks. Now the pro-Russian separists are trying to delete all sorts of info. We have this tweet about them getting a bunch of anti-aircraft missiles ( http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:NF6E5FC... ), showing off their new toys ( https://twitter.com/grassw…

It's interesting how the right to be forgotten seems so desirable Sorry, but this is a complete mischaracterization of the right. I've been having the same conversation with Yonatan Zunger on G+, he tried cracking a similar joke there. https://plus.google.com/u/0/+YonatanZunger/posts/856eZ9hWtm3 It's a flagrantly specious argument. Compelling public right to know in an international incident, attack on the public, by…

Who decides?

Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#73

Post by adobriyan »

bronson wrote: post #69
adobriyan wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the beginning of the conflict UA did everything they can to provoke Russia into crossing border. Well, almost everything.

A curious statement. How were they doing that? By letting the rebels take over their cities and airfields? By letting Russia have Crimea?

People burned alive in Odessa.

Many people (noncombatants) killed in Lugansk from BM-21 "Grad" bombings.

Artillery shooting near UA-RU border, killing two soldiers.

Shooting over cross-border stations while refugees were trying to escape into Russia.

Many episodes.

Kiev declared that 'terrorists' (familiar word, isn't it?) are in Lugansk and Donetsk and started shooting over whole population regardless.

Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#74

Post by rosser »

cobrausn wrote: post #70
adobriyan wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UA has the very same capability since USSR days and therefore probably did.

Let me spell it out for you then - Ukraine had no interest in shooting down it's own cargo plane. Russia would not likely risk firing a missile from within it's own territory. Who does that leave us? Maybe the people who claim ownership of the space, have the means, and are tweeting about their supposed AN-26 shootdowns? If this is trolling, it's bad trolling.

Insert suggestion of false-flag operation in 3, 2, 1...

Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#75

Post by glogla »

adobriyan wrote: post #45
danmaz74 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why on Earth would Ukraine try to shoot down Putin? To get absolutely sure they'll be annihilated by Russia??

Since the beginning of the conflict UA did everything they can to provoke Russia into crossing border. Well, almost everything.

There are plenty of Russian soldiers that crossed the border already.

Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#76

Post by adobriyan »

cobrausn wrote: post #70
adobriyan wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UA has the very same capability since USSR days and therefore probably did.

Let me spell it out for you then - Ukraine had no interest in shooting down it's own cargo plane. Russia would not likely risk firing a missile from within it's own territory. Who does that leave us? Maybe the people who claim ownership of the space, have the means, and are tweeting about their supposed AN-26 shootdowns? If this is trolling, it's bad trolling.

> Ukraine had no interest in shooting down it's own cargo plane.

Cargo -- no. MA plane -- very much.

Their so-called ATO (in reality, genocide) failed just recently. Some of their troops were surrounded at UA-RU border by rebels, they are desorganised, some are fleeing into Russia even.

At this point Kiev needs something.

Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#77

Post by szierk »

austenallred wrote: post #5

It's interesting how the right to be forgotten seems so desirable, yet when something like this happens it's great that no one can cover up their tracks. Now the pro-Russian separists are trying to delete all sorts of info. We have this tweet about them getting a bunch of anti-aircraft missiles ( http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:NF6E5FC... ), showing off their new toys ( https://twitter.com/grassw…

It's apples and oranges. The right to be forgotten usually doesn't refer to things adults unanonymously post to social networking sites and similar forums.

Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#78

Post by adobriyan »

glogla wrote: post #75
adobriyan wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the beginning of the conflict UA did everything they can to provoke Russia into crossing border. Well, almost everything.

There are plenty of Russian soldiers that crossed the border already.

Putin himself has crossed border already.

I think it is best for me to leave this little Intellectual Curiosity Club.

Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#79

Post by dang »

greglindahl wrote: post #14
quantized wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's on topic with the Wayback Machine involvement.

Yes, and I'm glad that I was allowed to change the title of the article to indicate the reason why this is relevant to HN. Edit2: and now the title got reverted to the article title, which obscures what's interesting to HN readers. Oh well, inflexible policy in action. EDIT: Given the poor quality of the discussion, I now regret posting this link. Very little discussion of the Wayback machine and how this is a new an…

Ok, we'll change the title back again. I don't think this thread was destined to be very substantive, though. The topic is too hot, for more than one meaning of "hot".

Re: Wayback Machine points to pro-Russia rebels in downing of MH17

#80

Post by glogla »

adobriyan wrote: post #73
bronson wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A curious statement. How were they doing that? By letting the rebels take over their cities and airfields? By letting Russia have Crimea?

People burned alive in Odessa. Many people (noncombatants) killed in Lugansk from BM-21 "Grad" bombings. Artillery shooting near UA-RU border, killing two soldiers. Shooting over cross-border stations while refugees were trying to escape into Russia. Many episodes. Kiev declared that 'terrorists' (familiar word, isn't it?) are in Lugansk and Donetsk and started shooting over whole population regardless.

> People burned alive in Odessa.

That was interesting incident.

There was a peaceful protest, that was attacked by (pro-)Russian militants with guns. Then the crowd started to defend itself, the attackers retreated and barricaded themselves in a wooden building. They were still shooting into the crowd and throwing Molotov's cocktails. The crowd was was mostly unarmed save for it's own Molotov's cocktails.

Barricading inside wooden building and throwing fire around is not especially smart idea. That's how it ended, also.

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