Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#191

Post by masmullin » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 9:49 PM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #182

ancap wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you don't know what capitalism is. Here's the definition Google spit out: "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state." Seeing as cronyism necessarily requires state influence and capitalism requires the lack of state influence, your conclusion falls on its face.

Capitalism as ideally defined is a period an economy often passes through extremely briefly; one of the exit paths is consolidation of enough power/wealth/influence in a handful of individuals or corporations to begin effectively purchasing government actions as desired. Unless you would like to argue that no true Scotsman would ever abuse a position to make a buck...

Capitalism is the free and willing exchange of goods.

Because the state has colluded with certain companies to remove the 'free' from the above statement, the US internet is no longer a capitalistic system.

Your statement about all capitalism eventual collapsing to fascism deserves more evidence. If you could truly prove your point, you'd win a nobel prize.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#192

Post by FireBeyond » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 9:50 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #123

ubernostrum wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wrote: Well, Netflix is pushing traffic to Verizon. Saying they're not is factually incorrect. Then you wrote: They're just doing so in response to requests coming out of Verizon networks. The point at hand, of course, was whether it's fair to frame things in terms of "Netflix pushing traffic to Verizon" when the reason for the traffic is requests initiated by customers on Verizon's network. Nit-picking about whe…

Netflix wrote all of the apps people are using to make requests to Netflix. It's important to note that, because that means Netflix is in complete control over the number of requests that come "from" Verizon. To say that customers are directly making the requests is factually incorrect - Netflix is making the requests, to itself, over the connections of Verizon customers. Important distinction, because Netflix is in…

Wow, so your claim is that Netflix is maliciously, and intentionally, offering high(er) definition content not to please its customers, but to spite ISPs?

And you're saying that with a straight face...

And wondering why people aren't taking you seriously?

Just like your argument that Netflix is 'pushing content to Verizon consumers', ignoring that 'Verizon consumers are requesting said content'.

Maybe one of the things Netflix could do to deal with the volume of data is let Verizon customers know that that their service is being degraded because of that volume...

Wait... I'm getting deja vu...

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#193

Post by ancap » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 9:53 PM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #182

ancap wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you don't know what capitalism is. Here's the definition Google spit out: "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state." Seeing as cronyism necessarily requires state influence and capitalism requires the lack of state influence, your conclusion falls on its face.

Capitalism as ideally defined is a period an economy often passes through extremely briefly; one of the exit paths is consolidation of enough power/wealth/influence in a handful of individuals or corporations to begin effectively purchasing government actions as desired. Unless you would like to argue that no true Scotsman would ever abuse a position to make a buck...

>one of the exit paths is consolidation of enough power/wealth/influence in a handful of individuals or corporations to begin effectively purchasing government actions as desired.

The prerequisite to purchasing government actions is the government having the power/authority to take action. There's a reason lobbyists do not approach you or me.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#194

Post by diminoten » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 9:56 PM UTC

FireBeyond wrote: post #192

diminoten wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netflix wrote all of the apps people are using to make requests to Netflix. It's important to note that, because that means Netflix is in complete control over the number of requests that come "from" Verizon. To say that customers are directly making the requests is factually incorrect - Netflix is making the requests, to itself, over the connections of Verizon customers. Important distinction, because Netflix is in…

Wow, so your claim is that Netflix is maliciously, and intentionally, offering high(er) definition content not to please its customers, but to spite ISPs? And you're saying that with a straight face... And wondering why people aren't taking you seriously? Just like your argument that Netflix is 'pushing content to Verizon consumers', ignoring that 'Verizon consumers are requesting said content'. Maybe one of the thin…

Maliciously? I haven't said. Intentionally? Yes.

I guess it's more of the, "added bonus" of further stressing ISP networks to further push the issue.

Like I've been saying, I'm offering no "ought" statements, only "is" statements[0].

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#195

Post by josho » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 9:57 PM UTC

batbomb wrote: post #29

That chart is worthless without numbers. First off, the chart makes it sound like Netflix is preferring subpar transit providers, and that by simply switching to different transit providers, they'd be fine. But there's no numbers on total bandwidth. For example, if Verizon has 100Gbps to Netflix's content providers, and only 40Gbps to their other content providers, then the additional 20Gbps is going to be a drop in…

Great analysis, thank you.

Adding to your point about gumming up the metro area routers inside Verizon that may be quite possible. Remember this is Verizon's analysis for a single customer. What are the odds that Verizon, to influence public policy, choose a customer that would best represent Verizon's case. For example, a customer in a region that was just provisioned a bunch of extra capacity. So, it's possible that the percentages at the customer/aggregation/metro area are not typical for Verizon, but rather Verizon's best case scenario.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#196

Post by Alupis » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 10:04 PM UTC

wdewind wrote: post #187

Alupis wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was the Open Connect Hardware. Free big storage boxes for all ISP's who wanted them. They also offered to change their entire distribution model to P2P as-to keep the traffic burden inside the consumer isp's network (which effectively costs them nothing, it's ingress traffic that is the major costs). Level3 has even offered to split the costs of upgrading the Big5 ISP's peering connections. All options were refu…

> They also offered to change their entire distribution model to P2P as-to keep the traffic burden inside the consumer isp's network (which effectively costs them nothing, it's ingress traffic that is the major costs). Why wouldn't they do this anyway? How does the ISP have any say in whether or not Netflix distributes their content via P2P? Or am I misunderstanding?

P2P would make the service quality depend on how many people were online, etc... I think they'd rather sort it out another way.

But regardless, even with that offer, Comcast scoffed at it, citing Netflix would still be a "large burden" to their network. (which would be even more-so false than it currently is).

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#197

Post by rhino369 » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 10:14 PM UTC

fyrabanks wrote: post #149

rhino369 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's also not right to say it's reaching Verizon. It's not. It's just hitting the edge of their network. Now you can say that Verizon is responsible for making sure the edge connection works properly. But you could also say that Netflix shouldn't just dump it's entire load onto shitty congested peer points. Think of Verizon as an island city with 10 bridges. Netflix is trying to send 1/3 of all the traffic throug…

> Realistically it's absurd that Netflix isn't use a whole variety of ISPs to manage the load themselves. Other big data providers do it. Why can't they? IIRC, Netflix offered to provide hardware to all the major ISPs that would cache Netflix content at the ISP data centers. Not a single one took them up on the offer.

But they weren't going to pay for rack space and power. Also, IMO offering free rackspace violates net neutrality since a start up couldn't get a similar deal.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#198

Post by rhino369 » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 10:22 PM UTC

wdewind wrote: post #150

rhino369 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's also not right to say it's reaching Verizon. It's not. It's just hitting the edge of their network. Now you can say that Verizon is responsible for making sure the edge connection works properly. But you could also say that Netflix shouldn't just dump it's entire load onto shitty congested peer points. Think of Verizon as an island city with 10 bridges. Netflix is trying to send 1/3 of all the traffic throug…

Netflix could do something differently, the question is really whose responsibility is it? The fact that the data gets to the edge of Verizon's network uncontested means the congestion is on Verizon's network. The fact that the traffic was requested by their members, and then delivered uncongested to them tells me it's on Verizon to fix the issue. In an ideal world Netflix would pay a single ISP for access to "the in…

And Verizon says that they have plenty of open peering points and it's Netflix's responsibility to deliver it in a responsible manner.

>In an ideal world Netflix would pay a single ISP for access to "the internet" and their traffic would be handled properly across peered networks.

Netflix can do that now, but its not what they are doing. It's paying an ISP to send it over only their peering points by choosing the lowest bidder. It saves Netflix on bandwidth costs. A normal ISP will send the data by any means to get it there. Netflix's ISP is just letting their saturated points sit there. That's the ISP's fault.

>The fact that the traffic was requested by their members, and then delivered uncongested to them tells me it's on Verizon to fix the issue.

You could easily make the argument that Netflix is selling their service and is the one sending the data. It should be on their ISP.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#199

Post by rhino369 » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 10:26 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #161

rhino369 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's also not right to say it's reaching Verizon. It's not. It's just hitting the edge of their network. Now you can say that Verizon is responsible for making sure the edge connection works properly. But you could also say that Netflix shouldn't just dump it's entire load onto shitty congested peer points. Think of Verizon as an island city with 10 bridges. Netflix is trying to send 1/3 of all the traffic throug…

> Verizon is saying, use a different bridge they are all open. You're assuming Verizon isn't over-subscribing all of their other peering connections too. > Both are valid arguments. However, one thing to consider is that Netflix could switch ISPS tomorrow and start dumping their load on a different bridge. Your analogy is broken because peering connections aren't like bridges. Expanding a bridge costs millions of dol…

>You're assuming Verizon isn't over-subscribing all of their other peering connections too.

The PR release linked as the topic of this thread claims it's only 44% on the other connections.

>Your analogy is broken because peering connections aren't like bridges. Expanding a bridge costs millions of dollars and can't reasonably be moved from where you build it. 10Gbps switch ports do not cost millions of dollars and can trivially be moved to a different peer if loads change.

There isn't just one peering ports there are many many peering points.

It's also cheap for Netflix to use another ISP who won't cram it down saturated peering points.

Finally, if it's so cheap why won't LEVEL3 or Cogent pay 100% of the cost?

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#200

Post by tempestn » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 10:41 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #176

cs702 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great comment -- it deserves an answer. Imagine for a moment that we're talking about water service instead, and that we live in an alternate reality in which, due to accidents of history, the water network evolved much like our Internet, with peering and settlement agreements between privately owned water networks. So, to borrow your words: you're paying your water service provider for a connection to their water ne…

But the problem here isn't that you can't fill your internet connection, period, but that you can't fill it with traffic from one particular endpoint. There is a bilateral aspect to the problem here that's totally ignored in your hypothetical. Different example. Air Canada has an unlimited North America flight pass: http://www.aircanada.com/en/offers/air/wallet_na_faq/wallet_... . You can characterize this pass as bu…

The bilateral arrangement here is between the ISP and an internet backbone - in this case, likely Level3. Level3 has stated that they are willing to split the cost of upgrading the link. Verizon is unwilling to do so. It's also useful to note that the cost of upgrading a link is tiny in the terms of these companies - on the order of $10-20k[1]. Netflix already pays to have sufficient capacity at their end of the connection; it is the ISP's responsibility to do the same, since their customers are paying to access whatever internet content they want. It is unreasonable to expect Netflix to pay for a separate, unnecessary connection. That's more like if the Buffalo airport decided they were getting too many flights from LA, so if anyone else from LA wanted to fly to Buffalo, they would have to pay for the addition of their own private terminal. It's not the way things are normally done, and it doesn't make sense.

[1] http://blog.level3.com/global-connectivity/observations-inte...