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Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

publicpolicy.verizon.com

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Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#111

Post by click170 »

jpgvm wrote: post #93

ITT: People that don't understand that settlement free peering needs to be mutually beneficial. When you pay Verizon you pay for access to their network. Not access to Netflix's network. Verizon will has transit agreements with some people to use it's network and settlement free peering with other ISPs of similar size. When I go to by transit from Verizon to host my website do I expect to get settlement free peering?…

I get where you're coming from, but I still don't agree with you.

If that's the case then it would be "helpful" for Netflix to configure their players to send garbage data back to Netflix as fast as possible while playing videos just to get closer to that 1:1 peering that you talk about. We both know this would benefit exactly no one, not the ISP, Netflix, or the consumer.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#112

Post by diminoten »

eyeface wrote: post #107
diminoten wrote: post #89

The argument I see most commonly from ISPs (and seemingly re-stated here) is basically, "Why should all of our customers pay for the upgrades we'd have to implement if only the Netflix subscribers would benefit from such upgrades?" The idea being that, no matter what they do, the cost of it will just be passed along to the consumer. So their solution is to charge Netflix for the upgrades. That way, when Netflix passe…

If Verizon feels that Netflix should pass the costs on to the consumers, how would they go about that? Much like Verizon can't know if a user will be using Netflix, Netflix can't know what networks a specific user will come in from, so they'd have to spread the costs over all subscribers, just like Verizon.

That's a fair point, but Verizon is at least claiming apparently that it's Netflix's problem to solve, not theirs.

Maybe varied subscription prices based on ISP. Say, a "base" $5/month you pay to Netflix, and then you can subscribe to "performance" plans that cost an extra $1/$2 per month and get you access to the peering agreements for those ISPs.

Though I'm pretty sure that'd start riots. But at least your ISPs wouldn't be offering "fast" lanes! Your products would do that!

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#113

Post by diminoten »

ubernostrum wrote: post #109
diminoten wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Netflix is pushing traffic to Verizon. Saying they're not is factually incorrect. They're just doing so in response to requests coming out of Verizon networks. Still though, Verizon customers are running Netflix apps, which are making the requests, so it's not like customers are doing the requesting "in the raw", or as "informed" consumers. They're just clicking "play" on Netflix video devices. Also, Verizon cu…

I think we downvote people who just post nit-picky irrelevant "corrections". The reply about a bartender "pushing a drink on you" is spot-on for why your point is pointless and not in need of visibility.

What's irrelevant about "some of the major points you said are factually wrong"?

It just sounds like you're okay with misrepresentation of the facts, because it agrees with your overall point.

Also, like I said in the above comment, bartenders can lose their license and get fined heavily for continuing to respond to requests for drinks once a user is "saturated", so I don't think it's the best analogy possible for your argument.

A better analogy might be water usage, which lends itself well to an "Internet as a utility" segue.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#114

Post by ubernostrum »

diminoten wrote: post #113
ubernostrum wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we downvote people who just post nit-picky irrelevant "corrections". The reply about a bartender "pushing a drink on you" is spot-on for why your point is pointless and not in need of visibility.

What's irrelevant about "some of the major points you said are factually wrong"? It just sounds like you're okay with misrepresentation of the facts, because it agrees with your overall point. Also, like I said in the above comment, bartenders can lose their license and get fined heavily for continuing to respond to requests for drinks once a user is "saturated", so I don't think it's the best analogy possible for yo…

You wrote:

Well, Netflix is pushing traffic to Verizon. Saying they're not is factually incorrect.

Then you wrote:

They're just doing so in response to requests coming out of Verizon networks.

The point at hand, of course, was whether it's fair to frame things in terms of "Netflix pushing traffic to Verizon" when the reason for the traffic is requests initiated by customers on Verizon's network. Nit-picking about whether someone is "pushing" data when responding to a request does not in any way further the discussion. Hence, downvote into invisibility.

Incidentally, the way to continue the script here is for you to ignore everything I just wrote and continue focusing with laser-beam intensity on bartenders serving drunk people in order to cover the fact that you did not have any relevant point to make in your original comment.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#115

Post by click170 »

nathanyz wrote: post #80
msandford wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's fucking GENIUS. Please God, if there is a God, let someone from Netflix read this parent post and implement such a thing to take the wind right out of Verizon's sails.

That is actually the basis of our startup is that we can solve the congestion problem by swarming with other video viewers to require less downstream bandwidth usage

That's interesting tech, but I kind of feel like it's just postponing dealing with the problem.

The problem is anticompetitive behaviour from ISPs, and while this would make video streaming better, it would just allow them to be more abusive, while we try to fill the resulting gap with more technology. IMO we should be leveraging the Netflix situation to fix that behaviour.

Regardless, swarm-sourced streaming is something I've been fantasizing about for awhile and I'd love to see your source if it's open. You should definitely proceed with it regardless.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#116

Post by ubernostrum »

ancap wrote: post #73
Someone1234 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really the key problem here. There is lack of choice in the US and Canada. Everyone loves to drum their chest about capitalism but in this case it isn't working, and ISPs have clearly colluded to divvy up the territories so they aren't directly competing. The internet has become a public utility just like electricity, water, or the roads. Businesses and private citizens depend on it day to day, and economic gr…

>Everyone loves to drum their chest about capitalism but in this case it isn't working Your comment assumes that capitalism is in place in the US. It is not. Cronyism, better known as fascism, is.

Your comment assumes that capitalism does not have an inevitable degenerative end state of cronyism and other ills.

The balance of history suggests strongly that it does.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#117

Post by deeviant »

If the non-trivial-much-highler-than-netflix monthly cost of verizon's internet service does not cover the cost of verizon connecting their customers the internet, what the hell does it cover?

I also don't understand why they are talking about "Review Shows No Congestion on Verizon Network", people are paying them for internet service, not verizon network service.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#118

Post by dllthomas »

diminoten wrote: post #87
cs702 wrote: post #51

Verizon is blaming Netflix for sending "an unprecedented amount of traffic" and "not taking steps to ensure that there is adequate capacity for their traffic to enter" Verizon's network. The thing is, Netflix is NOT pushing any of that traffic to Verizon. It is Verizon's customers who are pulling that traffic from NetFlix -- and they are paying Verizon to deliver it !!! More here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id…

Well, Netflix is pushing traffic to Verizon. Saying they're not is factually incorrect. They're just doing so in response to requests coming out of Verizon networks. Still though, Verizon customers are running Netflix apps, which are making the requests, so it's not like customers are doing the requesting "in the raw", or as "informed" consumers. They're just clicking "play" on Netflix video devices. Also, Verizon cu…

'[I]t's not like customers are doing the requesting "in the raw", or as "informed" consumers. They're just clicking "play" on Netflix video devices.'

I think most people clicking "play" on Netflix devices understand that it entails Netflix sending the content to them. I think most of them probably understand that this is more data than your average webpage, too. Maybe I'm significantly overestimating the intelligence of the average Netflix user, but I don't see how a deliberate request to play a show differs from "a request for the traffic".

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#119

Post by cpwright »

jpgvm wrote: post #93

ITT: People that don't understand that settlement free peering needs to be mutually beneficial. When you pay Verizon you pay for access to their network. Not access to Netflix's network. Verizon will has transit agreements with some people to use it's network and settlement free peering with other ISPs of similar size. When I go to by transit from Verizon to host my website do I expect to get settlement free peering?…

Netflix could fairly easily make the traffic symmetrical (send nonsense in the other direction), but that wouldn't be beneficial for anyone.

It would be more interesting if Netflix were able to start doing caching on the client boxes that sit there mostly idle and have a bit-torrent like protocol for distributing it.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#120

Post by Terretta »

jpgvm wrote: post #98
maxsilver wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but Verizon also wants Netflix to pay them for that same transit. That's what the whole blog article is about. Verizon trying to invent valid reasons for why they want Netflix to pay them.

They are not inventing reasons. Netflix is serving the content, Netflix pays for it to move. Simple as that. The issue is Layer 3 is not buying enough transit from Verizon to match the disparity in the traffic it wants to send beyond what is covered by settlement free peering. If you look at the diagram on the Verizon post you can see the link is saturated in one direction and only at 30% utilization in the other dir…

> If you look at the diagram on the Verizon post

The diagram is wrong.

The thing they colored red is not red. The wire is fine. The box inside Verizon's network has a network card in it that's oversubscribed. A slice of their box should be red.

Btw, the definition I'm familiar with for "transit" is crossing a network backbone, it's neither serving, nor consuming. The traffic "transits" your network, on its way from somewhere to somewhere.

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