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Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

publicpolicy.verizon.com

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Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#101

Post by groby_b »

jpgvm wrote: post #93

ITT: People that don't understand that settlement free peering needs to be mutually beneficial. When you pay Verizon you pay for access to their network. Not access to Netflix's network. Verizon will has transit agreements with some people to use it's network and settlement free peering with other ISPs of similar size. When I go to by transit from Verizon to host my website do I expect to get settlement free peering?…

You're missing a point. Netflix _pays_ for their bandwidth. Namely, their network provider. (Or more likely, their peering points).

It's not like somebody showed up at their office and said "Here's a giant pipe, push all you want".

And "they're not paying to the right people" is an incorrect argument. You pay _your_ connection point for money, and the recipient pays theirs. Intermediate connections need to be handled by the respective networks, not the endpoints.

So if Verizon wants money, they need to extract it from their peers, not Netflix. (Or the user). Which they don't do, because, well, turns out they make enough money of it that losing a peering agreement is actually detrimental to their business.

It's completely within VZWs rights to expect money from Layer3 for peering. It's not within their rights to extract it from somebody three hops down. That is the _reason_ we have peering agreements, billing individual customers doesn't make sense.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#102

Post by diminoten »

groby_b wrote: post #95
diminoten wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Netflix is pushing traffic to Verizon. Saying they're not is factually incorrect. They're just doing so in response to requests coming out of Verizon networks. Still though, Verizon customers are running Netflix apps, which are making the requests, so it's not like customers are doing the requesting "in the raw", or as "informed" consumers. They're just clicking "play" on Netflix video devices. Also, Verizon cu…

That's silly word twisting. Following that logic, my bartender is pushing drinks on me, just by my request.

Bartenders will get fined and lose their license if they serve drunk people.

Also, calling what I said "word twisting" isn't really addressing their argument, it's more or less just name-calling, which companies are really good at ignoring. To beat them, you've got to do better than that.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#103

Post by aschampion »

jpgvm wrote: post #93

ITT: People that don't understand that settlement free peering needs to be mutually beneficial. When you pay Verizon you pay for access to their network. Not access to Netflix's network. Verizon will has transit agreements with some people to use it's network and settlement free peering with other ISPs of similar size. When I go to by transit from Verizon to host my website do I expect to get settlement free peering?…

Free peering is mutually beneficial: Verizon is receiving payment from customers who want to access Netflix at reasonable speeds. Verizon serves consumers, who are by definition asymmetric users.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#105

Post by danesparza »

msandford wrote: post #54

From the article: "Netflix sends out an unprecedented amount of traffic." YES! Yes they do! But Netflix doesn't send that traffic for fun and giggles, just to swamp your network and clog up the port. They do it because YOUR CUSTOMERS HAVE ASKED THEM TO and you, Verizon, you duplicitous shitbag, have SOLD THAT CAPABILITY to your customers. They have LITERALLY PAID you to successfully receive up to 75Mbps worth of traf…

+1 for "duplicitous shitbag". That really hits the nail on the head.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#106

Post by ctdonath »

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #75
msandford wrote: post #54

From the article: "Netflix sends out an unprecedented amount of traffic." YES! Yes they do! But Netflix doesn't send that traffic for fun and giggles, just to swamp your network and clog up the port. They do it because YOUR CUSTOMERS HAVE ASKED THEM TO and you, Verizon, you duplicitous shitbag, have SOLD THAT CAPABILITY to your customers. They have LITERALLY PAID you to successfully receive up to 75Mbps worth of traf…

Maybe we're getting to the point where Internet connections are more like public roads. Maybe no private entity should control these roads. Maybe it's time for a sweeping change.

The "sweeping change" is an old legal standard: "common carrier". They're contracted to move bytes from source A to customer B at "up to" X Mbps; so long as (albeit limited) bandwidth is available at any given moment, fill the pipe and shove that data thru regardless of source. Traffic shaping may be fair if the pipe is full, but not if unused bandwidth remains sparsely used based solely on source or content.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#107

Post by eyeface »

diminoten wrote: post #89

The argument I see most commonly from ISPs (and seemingly re-stated here) is basically, "Why should all of our customers pay for the upgrades we'd have to implement if only the Netflix subscribers would benefit from such upgrades?" The idea being that, no matter what they do, the cost of it will just be passed along to the consumer. So their solution is to charge Netflix for the upgrades. That way, when Netflix passe…

If Verizon feels that Netflix should pass the costs on to the consumers, how would they go about that? Much like Verizon can't know if a user will be using Netflix, Netflix can't know what networks a specific user will come in from, so they'd have to spread the costs over all subscribers, just like Verizon.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#108

Post by diminoten »

jrs235 wrote: post #62

Verizon's customers request an unprecedented amount of data and traffic from Netflix. This is Verizon's problem, not Netflix's. Verizon should be working with Netflix on an amicable solution to perhaps cache data inside Verizon's network... O What do you know! Netflix already has a program for that: https://www.netflix.com/openconnect

To be fair, this problem is non-existant today, because Netflix has entered into payed peering agreements with Verison/Comcast/other ISPs.

They more or less acquiesced.

They're just not happy about it.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#109

Post by ubernostrum »

diminoten wrote: post #87
cs702 wrote: post #51

Verizon is blaming Netflix for sending "an unprecedented amount of traffic" and "not taking steps to ensure that there is adequate capacity for their traffic to enter" Verizon's network. The thing is, Netflix is NOT pushing any of that traffic to Verizon. It is Verizon's customers who are pulling that traffic from NetFlix -- and they are paying Verizon to deliver it !!! More here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id…

Well, Netflix is pushing traffic to Verizon. Saying they're not is factually incorrect. They're just doing so in response to requests coming out of Verizon networks. Still though, Verizon customers are running Netflix apps, which are making the requests, so it's not like customers are doing the requesting "in the raw", or as "informed" consumers. They're just clicking "play" on Netflix video devices. Also, Verizon cu…

I think we downvote people who just post nit-picky irrelevant "corrections".

The reply about a bartender "pushing a drink on you" is spot-on for why your point is pointless and not in need of visibility.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#110

Post by opendais »

jpgvm wrote: post #93

ITT: People that don't understand that settlement free peering needs to be mutually beneficial. When you pay Verizon you pay for access to their network. Not access to Netflix's network. Verizon will has transit agreements with some people to use it's network and settlement free peering with other ISPs of similar size. When I go to by transit from Verizon to host my website do I expect to get settlement free peering?…

> Not understanding this is why HN and other tech news outlets are in outrage. This is just how peering arrangements work. Unless your traffic is balanced you need to pay the cost of transit, simple as that. ... > Now, the reason Netflix is bitching is they -are- paying for transit.. they just aren't paying enough to the right people. Their problem is that their transit providers don't have sufficiently large links to Verizons network.

It is mainly because of 2 things:

1) If you pay for X internet access, you expect to get X internet access. You don't expect to get a restricted version of what Verizon puts out in its marketing. It isn't reasonable to expect a lay person to see it differently.

2) https://www.netflix.com/openconnect

Netflix is willing to let them put their hardware inside their network. Verzion, et al. refuse unless they receive "special compensation" above and beyond what is normal [normal being defined as Netflix's relationship with companies like Frontier, British Telecom, TDC, Clearwire, GVT, Telus, Bell Canada, Virgin, Cablevision, Google Fiber, Telmex].

Verizon, et al. can complain all they'd like. However, they want special treatment above and beyond what a small ISP like Google gets. Their argument is "because Verizon has a monopoly on its customers internet access". :/

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