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Subtle -isms at Hacker School

hackerschool.com

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Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#71

Post by mmcwilliams »

fred_durst wrote: post #20

I think Hacker School's own words about why they no longer give feedback is a great example of what happens when one hyper analyzes the context and connotation of everything a person says and does. https://www.hackerschool.com/feedback Eventually, everyone stops communicating and just says nothing to avoid the possibility of saying the wrong thing.

I think it merely emphasizes that doing something "right" is hard and that sometimes over promising leads to less-than-ideal interactions for two parties at once. The page you links to essentially says, "we didn't like doing it and people didn't like receiving it." There is nothing wrong with wanting to give quality feedback rather than a hasty response that communicates dismissal.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#72

Post by invadedby »

dfxm12 wrote: post #37
invadedby wrote: post #14

This is a throwaway account. I feel we are being invaded. The culture we used to have didn't cared about isms or whatever you want to call them. It developed through text were it hardly matter who was on the other side of the connection, only skills and thoughts mattered. Those were the good old days, when we were free. Now we are being invaded. We, like every other culture in the world, are ask to not use certain la…

> I feel we are being invaded. by whom? >The culture we used to have didn't cared about isms or whatever you want to call them. When? Depending how far back you go, The hacker culture attracted a very specific type of person. It was self-selective, so they themselves had similar cultural norms. Today is very different. Hackers are more diverse, thus these issues come to light. This brings us back to: > Now we are bei…

>by whom?

Not sure, people who care more about a narrative of justice than technical hacks.

>When? Depending how far back you go, The hacker culture attracted a very specific type of person. It was self-selective, so they themselves had similar cultural norms.

I guess that the startup scene made us popular, which tends to attract the sort of people who like guidelines, rules and control.

> There are going to be growing pains, but in the end, diversity is a good thing, right?

I just do not see why we need rules. Specially rules we are not expected to bend.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#73

Post by wmj »

dfxm12 wrote: post #37
invadedby wrote: post #14

This is a throwaway account. I feel we are being invaded. The culture we used to have didn't cared about isms or whatever you want to call them. It developed through text were it hardly matter who was on the other side of the connection, only skills and thoughts mattered. Those were the good old days, when we were free. Now we are being invaded. We, like every other culture in the world, are ask to not use certain la…

> I feel we are being invaded. by whom? >The culture we used to have didn't cared about isms or whatever you want to call them. When? Depending how far back you go, The hacker culture attracted a very specific type of person. It was self-selective, so they themselves had similar cultural norms. Today is very different. Hackers are more diverse, thus these issues come to light. This brings us back to: > Now we are bei…

Enforced diversity that lowers average competence is a very bad thing, both for the industry and for human civilization as a whole.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#74

Post by ahh »

nicholasjbs wrote: post #62
ahh wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If these rules actually created the environment you're imagining Of course they don't, for the people you think are high status. Male losers like me get hosed, but who cares what kulaks think?

I'm a straight, white, upper-middle class guy. Do you honestly believe I've dedicated the past four years of my life to making an environment that's terrible for myself and others like me?

Of course it's not terrible for you, you're in charge and have high social status. No one punches down to you because no one's in a position to do so.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#75

Post by thumbtackthief »

nawitus wrote: post #34
nicholasjbs wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shaming rituals, however light in touch they are, rarely improve things. This is in no way a "shaming ritual." It isn't intended to be one, and it hasn't become one in practice. I'm one of the founders of Hacker School. I can't stand politics. If these rules actually created the environment you're imagining, we'd get rid of them immediately. Thankfully, we have several years of experience now and we've found that hav…

Accusation of sexism (etc.) is public and brings shame to the accused (whether or not the accused is guilty). It's also clearly a ritual. In conclusion, I think these social rules explained the blog article are indeed shaming rituals. You might not agree, which is not surprising since you're one of the founders.

Just like anything else, tactful people will do this privately and with discretion.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#76

Post by thumbtackthief »

Zikes wrote: post #59
thumbtackthief wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a chance you said something that others would consider homophobic or sexist when that's not what you intended? Is there a chance others could have a different interpretation of your casual remarks?

Is there a chance? Certainly. Should we let everyone's internalized emotional damage be projected onto society at large? Certainly not. If we're going to let everyone interpret our words however they wish, then the entire concept of language becomes meaningless.

Personally, I want someone to tell me if I've said something offensive. If the offense was unintentional, I then can decide whether saying that thing was important enough to me to warrant upsetting someone else. Maybe it was. Usually it's not. I suppose some people might prefer living in a bubble where they never have to think about how what they say impacts other people, but I was glad to go to Hacker School where that wasn't the case.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#77

Post by thumbtackthief »

ibejoeb wrote: post #63
Zikes wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ban on debates is particularly jarring. I get the idea, a debate could easily turn into a heated argument, but if someone told me I am being sexist or homophobic when I am not then I'm certainly not going to apologize for it. If they want to maintain a civil environment that's able to call out subtle -isms, then they should simply accept "no, it wasn't" just as freely as "oops, sorry".

Now we watch as the debate happens here by throwaway proxy. I'm certainly not going to attend HS, so do what you want, I suppose. I probably won't be hiring anyone who comes out of the program, either. I can't imagine interacting with a product of this environment. So conditioned to avoid not just confrontation but plain discourse. This is a social lobotomy.

It's 'conditioning' to be polite and think about what you say. It's sad that you think that's a negative.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#78

Post by mcguire »

PeterGriffin wrote: post #44
pessimizer wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between your proposal and a policy of starting as a closely knit monoculture, and only accepting people that share that culture? Isn't that exactly what you should be trying to avoid?

No, why would this be something to try to avoid? Sexism and racism is a kind of cultural trait, I hope you realize that. A culture may be selective on very different criteria. It can easily be blind to gender, race, age, religion, nation and many more, yet have certain very specific values. And letting people in who have the opposite values are toxic to that culture. You can't have a culture that's "open to everythin…

I'm sorry, I don't understand your comment.

Are you trying to say that the field of technology development in general or programming specifically would be toxicly harmed if certain groups of people, identified by "gender, race, age, religion, nation and many more", are allowed in to it? Or are you trying to say that objecting to people attacking others on the basis of gender, race, age, religion, nationality, etc., would be toxic to the culture of the field?

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#79

Post by Zikes »

antics wrote: post #70
HarrietJones wrote: post #4

Well today's my day to be the not-so-subtle-ist asshole at Hacker News. It's one thing to recognise that systemic forms of bias and discrimination can be subtle and invisible to those trying to fix them, but all this sort of thing does is hand more keys over to a small subset of people who are less interested in making the world more equal and more interested in grabbing, holding and exercising social power. Shaming…

I was in the Summer 2013 batch. Since this is the top-voted comment, let me be emphatic. The assumptions the parent comment makes about the HS experience bear no resemblance to reality. A good example is the consistent theme in this thread that such a rule can't exist without a shaming ritual, or without loss of being considered an adult. The context we're missing here is that participants at HS are self-selecting. O…

> To have this discussion without this specific context is to miss the point entirely.

The first sentence of the article:

> We've enjoyed seeing our social rules spread into other parts of the tech community.

The debate here is around whether or not these rules would work in other environments.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#80

Post by thumbtackthief »

antics wrote: post #70
HarrietJones wrote: post #4

Well today's my day to be the not-so-subtle-ist asshole at Hacker News. It's one thing to recognise that systemic forms of bias and discrimination can be subtle and invisible to those trying to fix them, but all this sort of thing does is hand more keys over to a small subset of people who are less interested in making the world more equal and more interested in grabbing, holding and exercising social power. Shaming…

I was in the Summer 2013 batch. Since this is the top-voted comment, let me be emphatic. The assumptions the parent comment makes about the HS experience bear no resemblance to reality. A good example is the consistent theme in this thread that such a rule can't exist without a shaming ritual, or without loss of being considered an adult. The context we're missing here is that participants at HS are self-selecting. O…

To add to that, given that HS is more diverse--in terms of race, religion, sex, orientation, gender expression, whatever--than anywhere else I've ever seen in the tech industry, maybe HS is onto something...
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