Subtle -isms at Hacker School • Hacker News Board

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#31

Post by samstokes » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 5:20 PM UTC

HarrietJones wrote: post #4

Well today's my day to be the not-so-subtle-ist asshole at Hacker News. It's one thing to recognise that systemic forms of bias and discrimination can be subtle and invisible to those trying to fix them, but all this sort of thing does is hand more keys over to a small subset of people who are less interested in making the world more equal and more interested in grabbing, holding and exercising social power. Shaming…

Having met some of the Hacker School faculty (though not the OP) and discussed their social rules, I don't believe this is a shaming ritual, in intent or practice. I think it's more like a code review.

"You need to check for a null pointer there."

"I think what you said was subtly racist."

"Did you think about making this its own class? It might be easier to test that way."

"That was a well-actually."

The intent is to educate, not to punish; and I think the expected response is more "oh yeah, good point!" than "I'm sorry".

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#32

Post by mcguire » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 5:20 PM UTC

davorak wrote: post #25

Zikes wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ban on debates is particularly jarring. I get the idea, a debate could easily turn into a heated argument, but if someone told me I am being sexist or homophobic when I am not then I'm certainly not going to apologize for it. If they want to maintain a civil environment that's able to call out subtle -isms, then they should simply accept "no, it wasn't" just as freely as "oops, sorry".

> The ban on debates is particularly jarring. That does not mean you would not be able to ask for clarification, concrete examples, how it has a negative effect. > if someone told me I am being sexist or homophobic when I am not then I'm certainly not going to apologize for it. It has not thing with being or having intent to be homophobic, sexist, etc. It is about some phrases being much more likely to have such inte…

>> The ban on debates is particularly jarring.

>That does not mean you would not be able to ask for clarification....

Only if such is not going to interfere with the current discussion, instruction, or other activity, which presumably represents what you are all there for, at that time.

Which might be the reason for banning debates: "Take it offline."

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#33

Post by bshimmin » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 5:21 PM UTC

It's really heartening that this has gone down like a lead balloon here.

Seriously, anyone who manages to take offence at a mixed group being greeted with "you guys" really needs to find something better to do. It doesn't consciously or unconsciously make anyone's life worse. It's just a couple of words that are a convenient greeting.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#34

Post by nawitus » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 5:21 PM UTC

nicholasjbs wrote: post #22

HarrietJones wrote: post #4

Well today's my day to be the not-so-subtle-ist asshole at Hacker News. It's one thing to recognise that systemic forms of bias and discrimination can be subtle and invisible to those trying to fix them, but all this sort of thing does is hand more keys over to a small subset of people who are less interested in making the world more equal and more interested in grabbing, holding and exercising social power. Shaming…

Shaming rituals, however light in touch they are, rarely improve things. This is in no way a "shaming ritual." It isn't intended to be one, and it hasn't become one in practice. I'm one of the founders of Hacker School. I can't stand politics. If these rules actually created the environment you're imagining, we'd get rid of them immediately. Thankfully, we have several years of experience now and we've found that hav…

Accusation of sexism (etc.) is public and brings shame to the accused (whether or not the accused is guilty). It's also clearly a ritual. In conclusion, I think these social rules explained the blog article are indeed shaming rituals. You might not agree, which is not surprising since you're one of the founders.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#35

Post by resu_nimda » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 5:22 PM UTC

invadedby wrote: post #14

This is a throwaway account. I feel we are being invaded. The culture we used to have didn't cared about isms or whatever you want to call them. It developed through text were it hardly matter who was on the other side of the connection, only skills and thoughts mattered. Those were the good old days, when we were free. Now we are being invaded. We, like every other culture in the world, are ask to not use certain la…

The culture we used to have didn't cared about isms or whatever you want to call them.

This reads like a 4chan teenager's manifesto. Alright, a bunch of nerds in their basements who are just so edgy and can say whatever they want. Badass! Well, you might be pleased to know that you're totally free to carry on the misanthropy club in plenty of areas of the internet. But here on Hacker News, and apparently especially at Hacker School, a lot of people that are actually coming from within the culture would like to see some change.

When I read this article, I too was annoyed. I felt it was over the top, way too politically correct. But then I read the comments here, and it's basically all these people coming out of the woodwork and vaulting right over the spirit of understanding in their haste to defend their right to be acerbic assholes.

They're not trying to silence you, they're just trying to implement guidelines that foster inclusion and collaboration. Is that really so awful?

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#36

Post by pessimizer » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 5:23 PM UTC

PeterGriffin wrote: post #11

I'm sorry, but I'm starting to get a bit sick of Hacker Schools constant whining about rules. If you want to encourage a specific culture you do this by starting with a small set of people who have this culture in their bones, then growing slowly and assimilating more people into that culture, addressing deviations swiftly and letting people get back to their work afterwards, without skipping a beat. Not by writing m…

What's the difference between your proposal and a policy of starting as a closely knit monoculture, and only accepting people that share that culture? Isn't that exactly what you should be trying to avoid?

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#37

Post by dfxm12 » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 5:24 PM UTC

invadedby wrote: post #14

This is a throwaway account. I feel we are being invaded. The culture we used to have didn't cared about isms or whatever you want to call them. It developed through text were it hardly matter who was on the other side of the connection, only skills and thoughts mattered. Those were the good old days, when we were free. Now we are being invaded. We, like every other culture in the world, are ask to not use certain la…

> I feel we are being invaded.

by whom?

>The culture we used to have didn't cared about isms or whatever you want to call them.

When? Depending how far back you go, The hacker culture attracted a very specific type of person. It was self-selective, so they themselves had similar cultural norms.

Today is very different. Hackers are more diverse, thus these issues come to light.

This brings us back to:

> Now we are being invaded.

There are going to be growing pains, but in the end, diversity is a good thing, right?

Or is this all an issue about degree?

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#38

Post by streptomycin » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 5:24 PM UTC

Although our employees are diverse on some axes, we're 90% white. There are also class barriers to attending Hacker School - while Hacker School is free, living in New York for three months is not.

I can't help but laugh sometimes. Good thing all the rich white women feel comfortable!

But seriously, how is it possible to have so few Asians? Usually the "problem" is that there are far too many. Maybe we need affirmative action for Asians, for once?

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#39

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 5:26 PM UTC

davorak wrote: post #21

fred_durst wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have to agree. To me "Subtle-isms" could lead to a culture of fear. When a mistake is vague and hard to understand, there becomes a certain amount of probability involved in making a mistake. Therefore those who are the most active could end up with the most mistakes. In this case, those who engage most with those around them, will likely break the most "Subtle-isms". This policy may simply reward the quiet s…

> I would have to agree. To me "Subtle-isms" could lead to a culture of fear. If someone points out a subtle-ism it seems like it would be fine to ask for clarification and/or additional concrete examples. They do try to address this issue by making the "social rules are lightweight" and tell students "feel free to talk to faculty." > those who engage most with those around them, will likely break the most "Subtle-is…

[deleted]

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#40

Post by nawitus » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 5:26 PM UTC

cjf4 wrote: post #15

At a certain point don't you have to trust people to be adults? If someone's being a "subtle" racist, they're just being racist, and you can deal accordingly (likewise for the rest of the "subtlisms"). Beyond that, if you want people to act with maturity, you have to treat them like adults, which these rules certainly don't do.

The problem is that it's there's no objective definition of racism, instead there are wildly different (and well-reasoned) positions. Some people think that even "believing" 'races' exist is racist, for starters. Perhaps even believing that someone could be justified in "believing" 'races' exist is racist in someone's mind. Then there's the whole debate about whether positive discrimination is racist or not, or if it's racist to prefer to have a relationship with one's "own race" etc. I guess the point thing is that racism is an extremely complex social issue with a lot of (well-argued) positions on a large number of questions.

On top of this, there's this idea of "subtle racism", which could include things that should be allowed if "suble racism" is defined by extremely politically correct people, or which could include only things that actually are racist according to some decent arguments.