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Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

america.aljazeera.com

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Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#61

Post by bayesianhorse »

rtpg wrote: post #50
terranstyler wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason they don't do it, in spite of nearly everyone [1] distrusting the US gov't, makes me wonder what kind of leverage the US secret services have. It also lends some credence to the "Germany was never really souvereign" theory. [1] Just check the comment sections in the major German newspapers.

>[1] Just check the comment sections in the major German newspapers. Considering the comments I see on websites like the Guardian, I don't know why I'd trust the comments section on any German newspaper. Maybe the Germans like that the US is footing the bill for most of the intelligence gathering in the world.

Germany is a smaller country than the US, has a pacifistic streak a mile wide and hasn't been hit hard by islamic terror yet.

You bet we aren't outspending the US.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#62

Post by rollo »

fit2rule wrote: post #29
susi22 wrote: post #28

Merkel doesn't care that much and she --even though I hate to say it-- is right that we shouldn't. This spying case isn't a big deal. It doesn't hurt Germany. Also the spying on her phone last year. She didn't really care all that much. After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the US. It's the US who's providing security to most of the western world…

>After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. The US is not just Germanys' biggest partner - it controls Germanys' sovereignty. The German intelligence services are all run from Washington. When Merkel says 'it does not matter', its because its really not relevant that America is spying on Germany: its allowed to. Germany lost WW2, and has not had a restoration of the sovereignty of its intelligence servi…

As a German I'm really glad about that. Germany is still not capable to act on its own. We're lucky the US are willing to hold us up while taking all the PR flak.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#63

Post by bayesianhorse »

terranstyler wrote: post #15
perlgeek wrote: post #12

As a German, I find the German reaction really pathetic. No, don't ask somebody for assistance who has just proven (again) that you can't trust him on that level. Do your own investigations, and find out who was involved. If any of the involved people were US diplomats, expel them from the country (and escalate to the UN? dunno if that's done). If not, go the normal route through the justice system. On a political le…

The reason they don't do it, in spite of nearly everyone [1] distrusting the US gov't, makes me wonder what kind of leverage the US secret services have. It also lends some credence to the "Germany was never really souvereign" theory. [1] Just check the comment sections in the major German newspapers.

Comment sections in major newspapers? These are dominated by a strange mixture of right-wing conservatives. They are heavily moderated to exclude hate-speech (enough of it makes it through so, and so does the latent attitude of things "Turks are an underrace"), and display a shocking replication of Russian fairy tales.

I would stubbornly refuse to call this a representative cross section of German opinion.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#64

Post by bayesianhorse »

terranstyler wrote: post #15
perlgeek wrote: post #12

As a German, I find the German reaction really pathetic. No, don't ask somebody for assistance who has just proven (again) that you can't trust him on that level. Do your own investigations, and find out who was involved. If any of the involved people were US diplomats, expel them from the country (and escalate to the UN? dunno if that's done). If not, go the normal route through the justice system. On a political le…

The reason they don't do it, in spite of nearly everyone [1] distrusting the US gov't, makes me wonder what kind of leverage the US secret services have. It also lends some credence to the "Germany was never really souvereign" theory. [1] Just check the comment sections in the major German newspapers.

Comment sections in major newspapers? These are dominated by a strange mixture of right-wing conservatives. They are heavily moderated to exclude hate-speech (enough of it makes it through so, and so does the latent attitude of things "Turks are an underrace"), and display a shocking replication of Russian fairy tales.

I would stubbornly refuse to call this a representative cross section of German opinion.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#65

Post by paglia_s »

susi22 wrote: post #28

Merkel doesn't care that much and she --even though I hate to say it-- is right that we shouldn't. This spying case isn't a big deal. It doesn't hurt Germany. Also the spying on her phone last year. She didn't really care all that much. After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the US. It's the US who's providing security to most of the western world…

> It's the US who's providing security to most of the western world. Who's supposed to protect us from Putin? The NATO?

Are you sure Europe couldn't manage its security by itself?

I mean, while keeping strong relations and cooperation directly with the US and inside NATO I don't understand why European countries wouldn't be able to defend themselves especially if we started thinking about a stronger cooperation between our defence systems or even a unique European army instead of keeping one for every country.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#66

Post by fit2rule »

eru wrote: post #30
fit2rule wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. The US is not just Germanys' biggest partner - it controls Germanys' sovereignty. The German intelligence services are all run from Washington. When Merkel says 'it does not matter', its because its really not relevant that America is spying on Germany: its allowed to. Germany lost WW2, and has not had a restoration of the sovereignty of its intelligence servi…

Didn't the 4+2 treaties restore full sovereignty?

Not fully valid until a Peace Treaty is signed (thus ending the war). The US is intentionally not allowing Germany to pursue such things so that it can maintain its bases on Germany without fuss. Also, I reiterate: the US runs Germanys' intelligence services.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#67

Post by claudius »

rollo wrote: post #51
claudius wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A single nuke is sufficient to deal with any reasonable aggressor and nonreasonable aggressors are rarely if ever a serious threat to any country. As such, it is quite perfectly senseless to spend billions on tanks and fighters when your next-door neighbour is happy sharing their nukes with you.

It's precisely the other way arround. This sketch is a humorous but precise assessment of this strategic issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX_d_vMKswE Relying on nuclear deterrent against modern hybrid warfare means you will lose.

Yet even with a huge conventional army, the US were unable to secure the territorial integrity of the Ukraine as originally agreed upon in 199x in return for giving up their nuclear weapons.

Hence, neither a conventional army nor human-operated nuclear weapons (an actual real life example rather than a sketchy sketch of this would have been the Falkland War, btw) provide a sufficient deterrent, making an automatic Doomsday device à la Dr. Strangelove the only logical choice.

Is that what you’re saying?

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#68

Post by tiatia »

Merkel may possibly know a lot about spying. Who would have thought?

Did Merkel work for the Stasi? http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-317907

The past of the current German president may not look much better (IM Larve)

Anyway, should anything of this be true, the top German leader may be tremendously vulnerable for blackmailing.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#69

Post by gurkendoktor »

tonymon wrote: post #45
michaelt wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the US. The problem with "They're assholes but we'll let them do what they like because we need them" is America isn't the only country Germany needs. Germany also imports a lot of oil and natural gas from Russia, for example. And lots of electronics and manufactured goods from China.

The thing is that Russia and China are not heavily spying on Germany, despite the fact, that they don't even have such close relationships as US and Germany [before]

Despite? :) Americans can freely spy in Germany because of the close relationship. In fact, thanks to our close relationship, we hand our data over for free in many cases (SWIFT, zomg!).

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#70

Post by rollo »

claudius wrote: post #67
rollo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's precisely the other way arround. This sketch is a humorous but precise assessment of this strategic issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX_d_vMKswE Relying on nuclear deterrent against modern hybrid warfare means you will lose.

Yet even with a huge conventional army, the US were unable to secure the territorial integrity of the Ukraine as originally agreed upon in 199x in return for giving up their nuclear weapons. Hence, neither a conventional army nor human-operated nuclear weapons (an actual real life example rather than a sketchy sketch of this would have been the Falkland War, btw) provide a sufficient deterrent, making an automatic Do…

Incorrect. Thanks to the ability of the US to project conventional force, they have deployed troops in Eastern Europe, the Baltic and the Black seas, thus stopping any further Russian aggression. This could only be done through a show of force that displays the ability and willingness to engage Russian forces should they try their tactics on a NATO state.

Furthemore, the US are keeping their side of the agreement. They are providing Ukraine with military equipment and intelligence and leading the way in destabilizing Putin's regime through sanctions. Thanks to that multi-levelled support and offensive Russia is right now losing the war in Ukraine and is on the brink of a Revolution itself.

All of this with barely any help from central Europe, which has its head up its ass and has succumbed to Russian influence and propaganda.

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