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How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

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Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#41

Post by _bfhp »

andrewflnr wrote: post #34
_bfhp wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not. Such a thing would be impossible. Look up "gender socialization" and read about girlhood: http://www.metafilter.com/121190/teenage-girls-they-havent-b... http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/womens-blog/2014/jan... http://sodisarmingdarling.tumblr.com/post/34106027759/what-i... http://rebeccahains.wordpress.com/2014/01/20/is-my-son-smart...

I think what's happening here, and in a lot of other cases, is that culture [0] tends to sieze on real (in this case IMO) asymmetries (girls care more about appearance than men) and blow it far out of proportion. I'm not justifying it, not even close; I find it horrifying. I'm saying that it has a seed in reality, mixed with a freight of repression and poorly-handled social revolutions, a beautiful thing corrupted. Y…

Should we assume that men have a natural tendency to cry a bit less because men cry less often?

The articles are more strongly consistent with the theory of gender socialization -- that the media et al coerces girls to focus (obsess, kill themselves over,) appearance, and without it it would be impossible to say to what degree such a thing as actually "biological". The rational course of action is to assume an absence of such a theoretical reality until evidence is found, just as with anything.

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#42

Post by thegeomaster »

hyperpape wrote: post #29
thegeomaster wrote: post #23

I have this exact same problem. I see merchandise and slogans and whatnot targeting the "geek culture". I hate that stuff, the "witty" and "nerdy" T-shirts with stupid inner jokes about programming, I hate the "developer-targeted" ads with stereotypical geek talk I'm bombarded with, I hate all that, and would never want to be a part of it. I feel it's the same that these women get because tech is getting pink. But I…

Two things: first people are different, and "it doesn't bother me" doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't bother someone else. Second, and probably more importantly, there is an issue of scale. I find the Big Bang Theory stupid and obnoxious, but I don't think any stereotyping I've dealt with in my life matches what I hear about from friends of mine who are Black or women or Muslim. It's easier to be easygoing about t…

Yes, people are different, and you're right that when something doesn't bother me doesn't mean that it shouldn't bother anyone else. But we need to draw a line where a "this bothers me" said by someone is actually meaningful and not oversensitivity. I think we can agree on that one, because a world where small and harmless statements that are in no way degrading can be deemed "offensive" by a very small group of people and judged because of that, would be a chaos. Some reasonable threshold must be there. Reasonable, of course. We shouldn't also allow really offensive and malicious statements and viewpoints and actions to slip by. I cannot stress this enough.

I can testify that people who are seen as geeks and/or nerds are very heavily stereotyped. I know I've been shaken off by a girl on one occasion when I mentioned my field of study, no joke. It's an extreme example, but the pendulum can swing both ways. But I didn't feel like the "female culture" was unwelcoming to programmers :) I just thought about how I met an isolated case of an idiot, and of course, that's how it is.

I still haven't heard someone say or allude that women, or a woman, is intrinsically less capable with tech-related crafts. I believe, though, that there are people who think that way. But I at least hope they're isolated cases, and I believe that they will be met with scorn from others just as much as they would from me, and that their behavior won't be tolerated.

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#43

Post by jiggy2011 »

watwut wrote: post #39
jiggy2011 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original meaning of Diva "A diva is a celebrated female singer; a woman of outstanding talent in the world of opera, and by extension in theatre, cinema and popular music." (according to wikipedia) so very similar to "rockstar".

Yes, but that is not how it is used in everyday English. That word is not used too often of when it is, it does not refer to musical talent.

I assume that people using the term "Web Diva" are referencing the first definition. Although I can't say I've ever heard anybody use that term, this article was the first place I heard of it.

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#44

Post by jiggy2011 »

jorgis wrote: post #25
_bfhp wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you think female interest in jewelry comes from? Are you implying that interest in jewelry is inborn in women? You are begging the question. The professor is concerned with general culture's image of women, which is perpetuated when female programmers are shown to be printing pink jewelry and perpetually enraptured by childish flowery borders. The existence of individual women who enjoy jewelry for the aesth…

Passing out mirrors and nail files at a social event for women interested in programming is like passing out hammers and dimensional lumber at a social event for men interested in fashion design.

Probably more like passing out deodorant or shaving kits.

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#45

Post by _bfhp »

watwut wrote: post #37
thegeomaster wrote: post #23

I have this exact same problem. I see merchandise and slogans and whatnot targeting the "geek culture". I hate that stuff, the "witty" and "nerdy" T-shirts with stupid inner jokes about programming, I hate the "developer-targeted" ads with stereotypical geek talk I'm bombarded with, I hate all that, and would never want to be a part of it. I feel it's the same that these women get because tech is getting pink. But I…

Because stereotypes that apply to women are usually about us being stupid, unable to manage finances, being weak, caring only about things like jewelry, not understanding politics, philosophy or anything that requires brain. If you see something pinkified or "for women", you can safely assume it is also dumbed down. It is not always so, but it happens to be true often enough. And mostly, while many people believe ste…

Indeed, OP's claim that he has "the exact same problem" is a lie. There is danger in obfuscating the realities of being part of a social class.

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#46

Post by watwut »

thegeomaster wrote: post #42
hyperpape wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two things: first people are different, and "it doesn't bother me" doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't bother someone else. Second, and probably more importantly, there is an issue of scale. I find the Big Bang Theory stupid and obnoxious, but I don't think any stereotyping I've dealt with in my life matches what I hear about from friends of mine who are Black or women or Muslim. It's easier to be easygoing about t…

Yes, people are different, and you're right that when something doesn't bother me doesn't mean that it shouldn't bother anyone else. But we need to draw a line where a "this bothers me" said by someone is actually meaningful and not oversensitivity. I think we can agree on that one, because a world where small and harmless statements that are in no way degrading can be deemed "offensive" by a very small group of peop…

"I still haven't heard someone say or allude that women, or a woman, is intrinsically less capable with tech-related crafts. "

I got told that twice if I recall right. Once while in highschool and once by colleague. I also had a professor ask me why did I not studied field supposedly easier for women (it was before exam, he had no idea what I know and what I do not know).

Then there were was assumption that I will happily do all the repetitive tasks and do not care about doing technically interesting work. I did not seen them doing such assumption for men.

Those were direct experiences. Most people who have such opinions shut up about it, it is just that you have to prove yourself harder to get the same as colleague/school mate.

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#47

Post by andrewflnr »

_bfhp wrote: post #24
spindritf wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is nature a somehow extraordinary claim and nurture is not? That was my question. "a tendency to adorn" is not the same as "a tendency to adorn oneself with jewelry" The latter is a subset of the former, OK. But I completely don't see the relevance.

The most complex kinds of objects that chimpanzees craft are tools. To posit that a psychological propensity for pieces of jewelry (a human invention) is inborn in only women is extraordinary and reeks of post-hoc logic. To posit that it is cultural meme is obviously not. Do you not understand this intuitively? Are you being 100% honest with me?

I think you're fighting a strawman here. The "human invention" part is what led the other commenters to generalize from "jewelry" to "adornment", which is a more accurate expression of the idea anyway. In this theory, jewelry is only a close-to-hand vehicle for expressing deeper inborn urges, also satisfied by elaborate clothing, hairstyles, hats and head-dresses, war paint, etc. Further, it's not present only in women, it just seems stronger. Given the obvious morphological and other behavior differences between men and women, it's entirely plausible that such a thing could be inborn.

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#49

Post by Mz »

Excerpt:

To start, there were the pitches from college engineering programs in curly purple typeface accented by flowery images. She started to notice that many websites for budding female engineers are pink. Then there was the flyer for an after-school program hanging in a hallway of her high school. Printed on purple polka-dot paper, it read, "Are you a tech girl? Are you a web diva?"

They aren't seriously doing this, are they? This is so gag-worthy. I am female and I like fashion and all that and I don't like polka dots. Nor am I big on wearing pink. I don't have an aversion to it but I certainly don't love it or something. I like "classic" fashion design.

I thin if you have a STEM brain, you probably kind of have an engineer's sensibilities. Why would that be particularly different because of what is between your legs?

geez.

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#50

Post by thegeomaster »

_bfhp wrote: post #45
watwut wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because stereotypes that apply to women are usually about us being stupid, unable to manage finances, being weak, caring only about things like jewelry, not understanding politics, philosophy or anything that requires brain. If you see something pinkified or "for women", you can safely assume it is also dumbed down. It is not always so, but it happens to be true often enough. And mostly, while many people believe ste…

Indeed, OP's claim that he has "the exact same problem" is a lie. There is danger in obfuscating the realities of being part of a social class.

Please elaborate.
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