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Russia Moves To Ban Online Services That Don’t Store Personal Data In Russia

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Re: Russia Moves To Ban Online Services That Don’t Store Personal Data In Russia

#81

Post by jacquesm »

huhtenberg wrote: post #73
jacquesm wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all about their ability to censor and has nothing to do with the stated reasons (combating piracy / protecting the privacy of Russian citizens and other fig leafs). If you want to know the real motivations for this then it helps to remember Putin's origins and articles like this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/russia-telecoms-watchdog... The rest of Europe does not (for now) share any of those motivation…

Is UK included in "the rest of Europe" by any chance? Besides if the censorship were the goal, then it's perfectly doable as of now and regardless of the physical location of the servers. Just ask Saudi's. To understand the motivation you have to stop reading Washington Times and looking at Putin's origins and instead consider what he has accomplished in recent years - he essentially resurrected the national pride. I…

The UK is in many ways more of an extension of the US than a part of Europe and behaves accordingly.

What the US's reaction would be if the situation was reversed is moot because that's not the world we currently live in. The fact is that Putin and his band of boyscouts are rapidly reverting to type and getting the communications between Russian citizens under their control is just another step in that play.

If you think Putin has restored national pride then you are falling hook, line and sinker for the propaganda, that's just cheap talk for the consumption by the gullible. Pride you achieve by having something to be proud of, this is just warmed over nationalism.

Re: Russia Moves To Ban Online Services That Don’t Store Personal Data In Russia

#82

Post by bad_user »

pjc50 wrote: post #70
bad_user wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is another regime looking to suppress dissent, just like China has been doing all along. No government can act without the acceptance of a majority of the citizens. China's firewall can only exist because the Chinese people are accepting it in the name of protecting children or other such bullshit - brits should watch out, as their personal liberties have been eroded in the name of safety for too long. And if…

Acquiescence is not acceptance.

Well, I have lived 7 years as a child under dictatorship and we've executed our dictator without a fair trial, on Christmas Day. Saddam Hussein in particular became extra paranoid after watching this particular execution on TV.

I do know a thing or two about the difference - and one has to understand the mentality of people living under a certain political system - the system only survives when there's enough acceptance, from a majority no less and acceptance happens because that's what people grow up with. That's why under stalinism at least there was so much emphasis on propaganda.

Re: Russia Moves To Ban Online Services That Don’t Store Personal Data In Russia

#83

Post by bayesianhorse »

davidjgraph wrote: post #57
ThePhysicist wrote: post #22

Brilliant move: Protect the Russian citizens from foreign government spying by making sure that all their data stays in their own country under the protection of their democratic government. Oh wait...

I don't agree. The difference is you vote for your own government (Russia has a democratic voting system, how the candidates are selected...well...). If you vote in a government that does that to its people, that's your business. Foreign governments owe you nothing, you can't reasonably complain about them abusing your rights if you put them in a position where they can.

It's not democracy unless quite a few conditions are met. Elections alone aren't satisfactory. Unless there is free speech, (completely) universal suffrage and honest authorities, there can't be a democracy.

Russia restricts free speech and universal suffrage through relatively "efficient" means, compared with China. Putin ensures his power with a lot less effort than the CCP. Also "honesty" in Russian authorities is something of a bad joke...

Re: Russia Moves To Ban Online Services That Don’t Store Personal Data In Russia

#84

Post by mercurial »

Amezarak wrote: post #31
hopeless wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could easily see the EU strengthening our data protection laws in the next few years to take us in this direction. In light of the NSA scandals there's probably a strong justification for this… except that the UK is a bigger danger to privacy and it operates within the EU.

Nearly every EU country is documented to have similar programs, not just the UK. Some are even much more aggressive about industrial espionage - for example, France. When European politicians make noise about using European-based services, it isn't so they can be sure your privacy is protected, it's so EU-based organizations can access those servers without having to negotiate with the NSA. As a side benefit, they ca…

It's not as clear-cut. The motivation of pro-privacy MEPs from the left-wing EU parties are most likely entirely different from the ones of the Council of Europe. But your point about most EU intelligence services being engaged in spying on EU citizens stands, unfortunately.

Re: Russia Moves To Ban Online Services That Don’t Store Personal Data In Russia

#85

Post by mercurial »

alexro wrote: post #78
vdaniuk wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just stop this craptastic argument of "every government is the same". Another favorite argument taken directly from putinbots social media guidance. And stop using strawman arguments. No government is perfect but there are degrees of corruption in the government. Russian government is extremely corrupt, Iceland government is a little bit corrupt. One is better than another. God, do I really have to post trivia on HN?

Don't think trivial and you'll be safe. There are degrees of corruption between of the biggest countries and the tiny ones, but not so much inside the group. The methods vary, of course.

You have plenty of small, extremely corrupt countries as well.

Re: Russia Moves To Ban Online Services That Don’t Store Personal Data In Russia

#86

Post by gtirloni »

bayesianhorse wrote: post #83
davidjgraph wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree. The difference is you vote for your own government (Russia has a democratic voting system, how the candidates are selected...well...). If you vote in a government that does that to its people, that's your business. Foreign governments owe you nothing, you can't reasonably complain about them abusing your rights if you put them in a position where they can.

It's not democracy unless quite a few conditions are met. Elections alone aren't satisfactory. Unless there is free speech, (completely) universal suffrage and honest authorities, there can't be a democracy. Russia restricts free speech and universal suffrage through relatively "efficient" means, compared with China. Putin ensures his power with a lot less effort than the CCP. Also "honesty" in Russian authorities is…

By your requirements for democracy, there is not a single democratic country on Earth.

And Russia restricts free speech better than China? Although I wouldn't argue Russia is a bastion of free speech, I do talk with my Russian friends over Facebook, Skype, email, etc, make jokes about and criticize their (and our) governments just fine without any problems so far. I cannot say the same of my Chinese colleagues, which I rarely interact and which have been so conditioned to suppress their opinions that even while visiting a foreign country where they were free to say whatever they wanted in private, even then refrained from doing so.

So yeah, both countries are quite bad when compared to the freedom heaven that the US is (wait.. what? NSA?) but I wouldn't go that far to put Russia and China in the same basket (unless we're willing to put all sufficiently advanced countries together, since it's pretty clear a great majority are already spying on their own citizens)

Re: Russia Moves To Ban Online Services That Don’t Store Personal Data In Russia

#88

Post by menato »

VMG wrote: post #72
bad_user wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is another regime looking to suppress dissent, just like China has been doing all along. No government can act without the acceptance of a majority of the citizens. China's firewall can only exist because the Chinese people are accepting it in the name of protecting children or other such bullshit - brits should watch out, as their personal liberties have been eroded in the name of safety for too long. And if…

> No government can act without the acceptance of a majority of the citizens. This is not a contradiction to the original statement. Even if the majority wants to suppress minority dissent (or do worse things to minorities), it's not the right thing to do.

> Even if the majority wants to suppress minority dissent (or do worse things to minorities), it's not the right thing to do.

Let me follow your definition, say, in the case of Ancient Rome. There is a minority of masters and a majority of slaves. Minority of masters has a dissent (from the slave's point of view, of course) that slaves should stay slaves. So, according to you, it is wrong for them to fight for their freedom, right?

Re: Russia Moves To Ban Online Services That Don’t Store Personal Data In Russia

#89

Post by VMG »

menato wrote: post #88
VMG wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No government can act without the acceptance of a majority of the citizens. This is not a contradiction to the original statement. Even if the majority wants to suppress minority dissent (or do worse things to minorities), it's not the right thing to do.

> Even if the majority wants to suppress minority dissent (or do worse things to minorities), it's not the right thing to do. Let me follow your definition, say, in the case of Ancient Rome. There is a minority of masters and a majority of slaves. Minority of masters has a dissent (from the slave's point of view, of course) that slaves should stay slaves. So, according to you, it is wrong for them to fight for their…

No, I should have worded it more carefully: Majority opinion isn't necessarily ethical, though it can be. They're independent concepts.

Re: Russia Moves To Ban Online Services That Don’t Store Personal Data In Russia

#90

Post by exelius »

Shivetya wrote: post #42
vdaniuk wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's hilarious. People in Russia support Putin exactly because there are virtually no free mass media. This is one of the latest steps to block access to all media channels that may oppose Russian cleptocratic government.

don't always believe what you read here, there are a lot of Russians who want to relive the glory days, real or perceived. Just because we in the West don't like him doesn't mean much to them, if anything it might bolster his image there. plus, considering what our President(s) do/done where do we have room to brag/gloat? I cannot find those news articles where Putin is using drones to kill his citizens abroad.

This is spot on. Russians had a ton of structure for ~70 years, then one day all of that disappeared. Outside the big cities, things did kind of go to shit for a long time, with many youth addicted to drugs or simply jobless and desperate. This led to a rise in extreme nationalism among the youth, who pine for the "good old days" when Russia was a global superpower.

You know those racist, alcoholic rednecks in Alabama who fly confederate flags, praise Jesus and love America? Russia has a lot of those. Except the government actively encourages their insanity, because redirecting their furor at outside forces (Ukraine/Crimea, US, the EU, etc) distracts from the kleptocracy that runs the country and has quietly been consolidating wealth and business ownership into the hands of a very small group of oligarchs. Putin is a hero to these guys; he projects a nationalist ideology onto the global stage, where Russia is the bully that gets its way.

Not saying the US doesn't do its share of geopolitically shady crap (NSA spying, etc) but it never reached these levels of crazy. What Russia and Putin are doing is very reminiscent of Nazi Germany, and not in a "they're acting line Nazis" kind of way. By promoting the dangerous idea that "ethnic Russians" in other countries need protection, it elevates that nationalism to the point where it can be used as a context for an invasion of a country. Never mind that the idea of "ethnic Russian" could apply to any person living in a country that was formerly part of the USSR.

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