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The Economy

blog.samaltman.com

141–150 of 270 posts

Re: The Economy

#141

The defense budget has gotten smaller as a total percentage of the economy since WWII, but the economy was smaller and the entire country was mobilized. We currently spend over a trillion dollars a year on defense and intelligence. "Entitlements" are not the problem.I love how they are entitlements even though you pay for them...in fact, let's start calling it the social safety net instead. The main problem is that t…

I wouldn't say spending on entitlement programs are an issue, they're more of a symptom. IMO, the root cause of our economic stagnation is our government's inability to create policy that is efficient, thoughtful, and timely. The inherently conservative features found in the structure western-style democracies are increasingly becoming an anchor on societal progress. Our governments aren't "conservative" in the ideological sense but in the slow, methodical manner in which change is meant to flow through the system.

I keep getting stuck on what I've learned of "lean" manufacturing principles and how hard it was for businesses to adapt to a more responsive and adaptive model of operations. Industrial behemoths could plod along, surviving off the enormous inertia they'd built over the decades. Some fell while others are still plodding along, yet unchallenged by efficient competitors that can't clear the entry barriers of the market, time will still come for them.

Governments are behemoths of a much more impressive scale. Their size lets them wield tools that no business is large enough to hold (monetary policy, "monopoly of violence"). Unfortunately inertia will always be overcome by time and friction in the form of a century of inefficient policy.

The fix isn't going to be found in dropping all forms of welfare or by jacking up tax rates to cover the continuing expenses of such programs, it will be found through guided reform. We need to base policy on facts and economic "facts" aren't universal, they're marginal and we need much more information and real world date to find those margins.

In my opinion the US needs a few big picture changes in order to start making informed policy reforms:

- States need to be given the room for experimentation that was intended our nations founders. The scientific approach to any problem requires a control group and when the federal government attempts to monopolize control at every level there's no room for comparison.

- To that point, there are many problems that can only be approached at a national level. The areas of defense, common natural resources, border controls, and interstate disputes of all types were wisely enshrined in the constitution as the domain of the federal government. While I'd like to hand as much power to the states as possible and others would like to handle things like healthcare at a purely national level, I think the wise approach would involve studying the international picture before jumping to any conclusions. Looking internationally we'd find that universal and mixed systems can be equally successful. Universal national systems (NHS), regional systems (Canada's provincial system), privately weighted mixed systems (Malaysia), and publicly weighted mixed systems (Germany) are all able to produce better outcomes than our attempt at a mixed system. So we must study, experiment and design, maybe we'd find that a provincial system would work best, maybe a national single payer system would work but despite years of debate we've ended up arguing over ideology. Ultimately we must have a system of reasoned debate and a legislative process capable of enacting the well-validated policy.

- Our electoral processes have resulted in a deeply divided, highly ideological country. There's no structural roadblock standing in the way of implementing well-researched policy as I've described, there are only political barriers. I can't think of a quick fix capable of changing millions of minds but I know that any slow shift like this degradation of political discourse can be reversed at the same slow pace. The solution is something that should have always been in the federal domain and that's our disjointed, uncoordinated redistricting processes. Centuries of gerrymandering have resulted in a map of districts engineered entirely for the purpose of furthering a party's political machine. The bent geography necessary for ensuring the "safety" of congressional seats is just a hair above the line of credibility if we are to consider our government "representative". The lack of fair demographic representation boxes us all in to neat little bubbles of ideology where few of us are allowed to express our political will in the face of an overwhelming majority opposition. We're the only country where districts are drawn by the interested parties and this needs to change. I believe it will push people out of their bubbles and hopefully bring about a stronger culture of political debate.

I have a few other ideas that are much less feasible but my tl;dr is that we need to start fostering a less divisive culture that will be receptive to taking a scientific approach to policy. Otherwise the lumbering dinosaurs called western democracies are going to fall so behind the curve that failure will become the only option.

Re: The Economy

#142
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Further, there's little evidence that Debt-to-GDP over 100% (despite "feeling" meaningful, because, 100%!) has any kind of predictive value for the long term direction of an economy, particularly one that has unusually low interest rates. If Debt-to-GDP were a problem for the US, you'd expect higher interest rates, not lower ones, as investors would be demanding higher returns on US debt. The fact that intere…

The thing that worries me about our debt is that it's not like the rates are locked-in for 1000 years. After bonds mature, we need to issue new bonds to pay for them. And if the interest rates are higher at the time, the new debt will have a higher interest rate (I guess, technically, the bonds will sell for a lower price, which has the same effect). Paying our current level of interest on our debt is not crushing. B…

Not being sarcastic here.

2013 A = Debt is around: $17.5 trillion B = Debt Service: $416 billion C = Average Rate: 2.38% ($416 billion / $17.5 trillion) D = U.S. Tax Revenue: +/- $2.8 Trillion

Things won't get interesting until B approaches D.

So one way of looking at is if everything remained constant (which it won't) you'd need 15% interest rates on the current debt for debt service to approach tax revenue. If interest rates stay the same you could increase the debt to $128 trillion.

Reference: Debt: http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/ir/ir_expense.htm Debt Service: http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/ir/ir_expense.htm Tax Revenue: http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/

Re: The Economy

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But no modern government seems capable of running a surplus for any length of time. Can you name any government, ever, that was capable of running a surplus indefinitely (say, until it was brought down by plague or war)?

Most likely not. I don't actually think it's possible. A government needs to borrow and it needs the facility all the time because you obviously can't predict the kind of disaster that might require it. And inevitably politicians will get into bidding wars in order to get elected which ends up ramping up national debt. Symbolically though, if government ran a surplus for x years during a particular ten year period, t…

Politicians will get into bidding wars in order to get elected which ends up ramping up national debt.

That's it. The rest is just noise. It's just too easy to spend other people's money, under the guise of 'public interest'. Even if the politician is not corrupt, and not, say, channeling public funds to friends, outside of a few obvious cases (foreign invasion, giant earthquake, meteor strike, e.g.) it is difficult to hold politicians accountable for, say "good intentions gone awry".

The United States did quite well for a half century or so (only dipping into debt to pay for wars). There was the moral precept of 'no taxation without representation' and the early government understood that debt incurred the future taxation of people who would not be able to go back in time and vote against the spending[0]. That's all been abandoned long since.

[0] it is often said that "governments are not like families" and so that debt dynamics are different. Well, that is indeed the case. At least when individuals enter a debt, there is a contract of understanding between a single person and the lendee which means that the responsibility for repayment is on the borrower and the consequences of default are on the lender (except in a few morally questionable cases, such as academic debt). When governments enter debt, the payment is the responsibility of, potentially, someone else (there's the 'spending other people's money' again, except this time, at a societal level).

Re: The Economy

#145
There's a specific mental trap -- I'll call this "scientism" -- that a lot of comments here are rapidly falling into. It's in treating macroeconomics as a "solved" problem, or putting too much faith in specific studies or sentences.

That's not at all the proper way to look at macroeconomics. Our economy is unimaginably complex -- it's full of hundreds and millions of moving parts, with each single part (the human brain) driven by an even more complex system with hundreds of billions of parts (neurons). All of these parts are re-orienting themselves with new data in real time.

What Sam is trying to say here, is that we don't know if these trends are "good" or "bad", or if they'll lead to bad outcomes or not, or in what time frame this will occur. All we know now -- and this I agree with -- is that something in our economy has changed permanently. And this should be a good cause to worry, or at least, should be taken as a call to arms to economists everywhere to try and figure out why our models aren't working as well as they used to.

    "Too large a proportion of recent "mathematical" economics are mere concoctions, 
    as imprecise as the initial assumptions they rest on, which allow the author
    to lose sight of the complexities and interdependencies of the real world in a 
    maze of pretentious and unhelpful symbols." - John Maynard Keynes

Re: The Economy

#146
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the classic paternalistic argument. It's deeply appealing to many people's preconceptions. But a growing body of experimental results call it into question. When you actually conduct the experiment -- a randomized controlled trial where you give some poor people cash and others in-kind services, the cash group outperforms.

I'd be interested to see any of the research on this, if you have references. I suspect that in practice it's exceptionally hard to draw realistic conclusions from any such research, simply due to the confounding factor of "the wider social structure of the country".

NPR had a brilliant episode where they discussed an experiment where money was given to a control group of people on Kenya. http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/11/08/243967328/episode-...

Re: The Economy

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True economic collapse , in which ammo becomes more valuable than money? No. Depression? Quite possible. I'd give it a 50% chance in the next 20 years (read my post on this thread, I explain some of why.) The very long term outlook is positive; the short-term outlook is dismal. The global elite and the middle class have been at war and the latter is losing.

Just read it, very interesting. I just have a fear of the economy and dollar collapsing and life as we know it going to shit since the whole world is so dependent on us. I don't have a very solid basis for this fear, but that's the nature of many fears (I saw someone on Maury with a fear of pickles). Just hearing bad news all the time about the direction this country is going makes it loom in the back of my head.

>Just hearing bad news all the time about the direction this country is going makes it loom in the back of my head.

Things are getting better across the board, but that narrative won't sell. Doom sells.

Re: The Economy

#148
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the classic paternalistic argument. It's deeply appealing to many people's preconceptions. But a growing body of experimental results call it into question. When you actually conduct the experiment -- a randomized controlled trial where you give some poor people cash and others in-kind services, the cash group outperforms.

Very interesting (and certainly plausible)! Could you link to any of the experiments?

Here is an article giving high level overview of a few of the experiments: https://decorrespondent.nl/541/why-we-should-give-free-money...

Re: The Economy

#149

This comment section turned out about the way one would predict: politics.

This comment section turned out about the way one would predict when so few of the participants have ever studied economics.

Unfortunately there seem to be two distinct groups that each think the other has never studied economics.

It's possible to have good discussions about this, but it requires a lot more moderation than HN wants to do (rightly, in my estimation). And probably a different format: the threaded discussion format leads to all sorts of weird tarpits.

Re: The Economy

#150
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take a very very dim view of Keynsianism prescriptions, although their analysis may be correct (sometimes). Let's agree that we're in a demand constrained economy (I am not sure but it may be the case). 1) Why should you believe that governments are good at readjusting the economy to "unconstrain" it from demand? From Halliburton/Iraq to Solyndra to Fisker to 38Studios ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/38_Studios ) t…

Your first point is a deeper problem that goes far beyond economics. We do have a government corruption problem. As for #2, the problem is that economic demand and economic activity means doing anything at all , including fixing environmental problems. Imagine there's no growth. Why adopt solar power then, and who's going to pay for it since there'd be no investment capital? Nope, just run those coal burners forever.…

The deflationary road leads to the dystopia portrayed in The Hunger Games: one or two massively advanced cloistered cities for the mega-rich, and vast feudal slave classes feeding them with coal and other should-be-obsolete things.

Huh? That's what the inflationary road leads to. This should be obvious, inflation skims value off the top of everyone's savings and channels it to the ultra rich (or politically connected, aka ultra rich). Almost every society in history, over the past 4000 or so years has been weakened by inflation, not deflation.

As a counterpoint, the US, which had a pretty good net deflationary run for about 150 years, had a pretty significant social equalization (freeing the slaves) over that time period.

The "deflationary spiral" hypothetical is popular idea but it is not supported by any historical evidence whatsoever (conceding that it may be true), mostly because despots have had a really hard time keeping themselves from debasing the currency over history.

I suggest reading this for some broad historical perspective: http://www.amazon.com/The-Great-Wave-Revolutions-History/dp/...

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