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Supreme court: Aereo is violating copyright law [pdf]

supremecourt.gov

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Re: Supreme court: Aereo is violating copyright law [pdf]

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's nothing "contorted" or "illogical" or "false-to-fact" about the copyright law in this case. The whole thing is contradictory. If the broadcasters broadcast for free over the air and local cable companies retransmit to local customers for free because it increases customer exposure to the broadcaster's advertising, that would be consistent. If over the air viewers had to pay to subscribe and broadcasters als…

It's illogical, but not in a way that's fatal to copyright. If the broadcasters have control of the content, they can license its usage downstream as they see fit. So it's stupid, but not self-contradictory. The law can be enforced with no contradictions.

> So it's stupid, but not self-contradictory. The law can be enforced with no contradictions.

Until you have a technology which is neither over the air transmission nor cable TV and there is no logical way to classify it as one or the other because the original distinction had no intelligible justification.

Re: Supreme court: Aereo is violating copyright law [pdf]

#312
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a big different between paying money all at once to buy and install hardware that I own vs paying a recurring fee for a service.

Are you suggesting that it should be illegal to rent an antenna via a recurring fee?

If it's bundled with a service that streams over the air broadcasts via the internet to wherever you happen to be, then yes.

Re: Supreme court: Aereo is violating copyright law [pdf]

#313
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the decision, you will see that you are absolutely allowed to do this. The length of the antenna or wire has nothing to do with anything. What is not allowed is public rebroadcasting (or what the law refers to as "performing"). The entire reason this law was written is because under an old law, cable companies ("community antenna television" in that day) were setting up antennas and running cable to multi…

Aereo now sells me the antenna for $100. They charge me a "colocation" fee. Aereo is now following the law according to this decision. They still don't need to pay broadcasters. It was an incredibly stupid decision. I could offer the exact same service. I will point you to a ~$160 hardware device that I will colocate in a datacenter in Chicago for you for $15/month. I'll provide power, networking, and unlimited bandw…

> How is this any different?

People will pay more for it, so Aereo will charge what they know they can

Re: Supreme court: Aereo is violating copyright law [pdf]

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems to be the only real distinction anyone can point to. But how is that different than the customer going to a place like Rent-a-Center to rent a TV antenna and paying them for installation? This is really the problem with the "look what it does, not how it does it" school of reasoning. What it does (allow you to watch OTA TV) is allowed sometimes and not others. How is a court supposed to differentiate betwe…

By weighing the intentions of the company against the intentions of the law. The intentions of the law were to prevent this rebroadcast of content. The intentions of Aereo were clearly to do this. Aereo tested the waters by trying to make a distinction between public and private, and between transmission and performance. Ultimately, the court did not agree such distinctions were valid.

> By weighing the intentions of the company against the intentions of the law.

Putting aside how you're supposed to evaluate the intent of Congress or Aereo without evaluating exactly what it is they're doing, are you ready for the stupid consequences of that? It would mean someone doing the same thing with the same result would be legal if they had different intent. For example, someone could set up a service where customers can rent a VM in the cloud attached to a software radio[1] receiver that can receive any radio signals. Then "someone" (do you really care who when the outcome is the same?) publishes free software that allows you to use that to accomplish what Aereo does and more. The intent of the antenna provider no longer has any identifiable relationship to broadcast TV and yet people are still watching NBC without paying for cable. The same is true of the software provider, whose software has no reason to distinguish between a radio receiver in the cloud vs. in your home. Is that the result you were going for?

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_radio

Re: Supreme court: Aereo is violating copyright law [pdf]

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you hired Aereo and paid all costs for them to do this for you and you alone, it would be at least a grey area. The reality is that Aereo built the system using their own capital and offered the service for a fee to any member of the public. The business model is no different from a cable company or satellite TV company. In the case of DropBox, you stipulate that you have the legal right to view the file, so that…

> In the case of DropBox, you stipulate that you have the legal right to view the file, so that answers the question. I have the legal right to accept OTA broadcasts in New York. I also have the right to store personal copies for time shifting (see Cablevision). It is exactly an analogous situation to using Dropbox to store copyrighted material solely for your own use.

You have a file with rights to use it. You upload the file to DropBox; then you download the file from DropBox. At all points along the way you have rights to the file.

Aereo has the right to view and time shift NY OTA content for their own use. But they upload their file to their system for your use. In doing so, they are attempting to transfer viewing and time-shifting rights from them to you.

This is not exactly the Court's reasoning, but it examines the differences in the context of file rights.

Re: Supreme court: Aereo is violating copyright law [pdf]

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, do you not see the difference between a one-time transaction with a third party that installs equipment they neither own nor operate and that has nothing to do with content, and an ongoing service relationship with a company that both owns and operates equipment that has everything to do with content? Are you fucking serious? "I don't see how the law can make a distinction based on how I acquired the content in…

> Wait, do you not see the difference between a one-time transaction with a third party that installs equipment they neither own nor operate and that has nothing to do with content, and an ongoing service relationship with a company that both owns and operates equipment that has everything to do with content? > Are you fucking serious? No need to be rude. Given that nothing illegal occurs throughout the entire proces…

"No need to be rude."

Sorry, but I take offense at arguments that are stupid or dishonest. The Geek Squad analogy is not even remotely applicable since nothing owned or operated by the Geek Squad touches the content stream. Given that the content stream is the bone of contention, comparing them to Aero is - at best - stupid, and at worst, diversionary, which smacks of dishonestly.

And since we're on the subject, there was also an element of dishonesty in the way you tried to defend your Dropbox analogy. Initially, when you were wondering about what differentiates DB from Aero, you were talking about the companies. The explanation that one company qualified for the DMCA's Safe Harbor protections while the other didn't demolished your position. But you didn't concede - or even acknowledge - the point. Instead, you tried to continue the argument by quietly shifting the subject from the companies to the content, which is a separate matter entirely. This kind of rhetorical shell game is a weasel move, and is not something you see from people who argue in good faith.

And so you know, it was the pattern of dishonesty - and not a single incident - that raised my ire. If you can't support your point without resorting to bullshit, it's probably because the point you're trying to make is a bad one. Honest people stop there. Bullshitters press ahead, typically by employing the shell-game tactics you just used here.

For more on that subject, see Harry Frankfurt, who notes that liars - bad as they are - still respect the authority of the truth if only to do a better job manipulating it to their own ends. Bullshitters simply don't care. For this reason, they're a greater enemy of the truth than liars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit

Moving on, I am "familiar" with Cablevision. They're a cable company that does business with content providers. Consolidating remote DVRs under a single roof is not a problem for content providers as long as payments from Cablevision remain uninterrupted per the terms of the contracts that Cablevision signs. Indeed, if their remote DVR system increases paid and advertiser-auditable audience reach, it can work out well for everybody. Because of this positive business relationship, Cablevision is authorized to redistribute the content that Cablevision redistributes in the way that they redistribute it.

If Aero wants to redistribute content in a similar fashion, it needs its own contracts with providers. It can no more piggyback on Cablevision's contracts for content than you can park your car in a private spot reserved for - and paid for - a complete stranger.

That's the issue here. It's not about your right to pull down OTA content. It's about your desire to pay a third party to do that on your behalf. Specifically, it's about the right of that third-party to offer that service on a large-scale, commercial basis in the first place. This is what's known in terms of copyright law as "substantially infringing."

Re: Supreme court: Aereo is violating copyright law [pdf]

#317

What bothers me about this is how quickly decisions are made when it comes to content and copyright. Average Joe doesn't give a flying f* about his privacy, the loss of life in war, the obscene spending on failed military projects, the lack of social programs, the millions stuck with ridiculous student debt... But hey, touch their right to watch Netflix or some local station from NYC from their house in California an…

[deleted]

Re: Supreme court: Aereo is violating copyright law [pdf]

#318
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you are absolutely allowed to do this. So you agree that I have a legal right to accept the OTA transmission in New York, to make a personal copy of the transmission, and send that copy to myself in Minnesota for viewing. This is precisely what I do by hiring Aereo. There is no difference except I pay someone else to do the development and maintenance since I lack the skills or free time to travel to New York and s…

I'd highly recommend reading the ruling. It's a good read and the points are made more eloquently than I can put them. I'm not speaking as to whether or not the law is a good law, but this interpretation of the law seems pretty solid. Your hypothetical Dropbox scenario is actually addressed at the bottom of page 16, but you need context from earlier parts of the ruling to understand the "public" argument. It's not re…

My main beef is I feel they're stretching pretty far to claim the transmission requested by an individual from a private antenna to that individual is actually to the public. The argument I'm objecting to is around Section 3, page 12-14 or so. The transmissions were each individually requested by each user, and chosen to watch at unique times and durations by each user. That, to me, is sufficient to mark each transmission as private. None of the transmissions are identical or sent to anyone who did not explicitly request them, unlike the CATV operators they continually draw comparisons to. There is no part of that process that I think can reasonably be called a public transmission.

Page 16 does address the Dropbox scenario, but I don't think it provides a clear line, which makes this a pretty crappy opinion, in my opinion. As they say on page 16, the cloud operators could try to slip through the holes in their definitions of "perform" and "the public", but I don't really see the distinction. I, the user, used my legal right to place copyrighted work on the remote service, and I chose to play it back some time later. That sentence applies both to Aereo and to Dropbox, and I think this decision would make the Dropbox scenario illegal.

Re: Supreme court: Aereo is violating copyright law [pdf]

#319
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the decision, you will see that you are absolutely allowed to do this. The length of the antenna or wire has nothing to do with anything. What is not allowed is public rebroadcasting (or what the law refers to as "performing"). The entire reason this law was written is because under an old law, cable companies ("community antenna television" in that day) were setting up antennas and running cable to multi…

> you are absolutely allowed to do this. So you agree that I have a legal right to accept the OTA transmission in New York, to make a personal copy of the transmission, and send that copy to myself in Minnesota for viewing. This is precisely what I do by hiring Aereo. There is no difference except I pay someone else to do the development and maintenance since I lack the skills or free time to travel to New York and s…

Mathematical induction does not apply to the law. Just because a single instance of an activity is legal does not necessarily mean that N instances of the same activity are legal. This is exactly the distinction between "private" performances, which are fair use, and "public" ones, which aren't.

Re: Supreme court: Aereo is violating copyright law [pdf]

#320

The Copyright Act is a federal statute that protects any public performance of a copyrighted work from infringing uses. Aereo took what were undisputedly public performances of works from broadcasters to the public, intercepted them, and by a feat of what amounted to technological legerdemain turned them into what it argued were no longer public performances but, instead, individualized transmissions from its service…

In other words, copyright laws are not some clear set of rules derived from a clear set of ideas or principles. Rather, they are a bunch of vague nonsense that will be interpreted by government on a case-by-case basis, such anything that is opposed by major groups which represent content creators or distribution channels will be deemed illegal.
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