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FAA bans the use of drones to deliver packages

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Re: FAA bans the use of drones to deliver packages

#51

Post by skyebook »

Houshalter wrote: post #47
sp332 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

418 U.S. military drones have crashed so far. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/06/22/cr... Do you think commercial drones will be better-maintained or have more experienced pilots? I don't.

These are very very different types of aircraft. Sort of like saying a few submarines have sunk therefore we are outlawing all boats.

Beyond carrying weapons or higher-that-prosumer-quality video equipment, they are not all that different. UAS go from the sized aircraft one would typically think of as "military drone" to the small hand-launched aircraft used by people on the ground [0]. Using a submarineboat analog I'd argue with as the overall physics and operating principles of the two are hugely different.

[0] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/12/us-military-min...

Re: FAA bans the use of drones to deliver packages

#52

Post by mturmon »

sp332 wrote: post #35
purringmeow wrote: post #23

I really can't see the need for premature bans. Has there been a significant amount of accidents involving the use of delivery drones? I don't think so, so why potentially limit your competitiveness? :(

418 U.S. military drones have crashed so far. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/06/22/cr... Do you think commercial drones will be better-maintained or have more experienced pilots? I don't.

Hey, thanks for actually supplying a number and a source for the number.

I find many of the other comments nearby are carping about details but not really addressing the point, which is that these things can and will crash, which is why they will be regulated somehow.

Re: FAA bans the use of drones to deliver packages

#53

Post by Evolved »

Advice to attempt to find a loophole or skirt the law in some way probably won't turn out good for Amazon. A better approach would be to cooperate and participate in discussions with the FAA and for Amazon to perhaps help pioneer new regulation regarding drones for commercial purposes like package delivery.

Also I don't think the negative shipping part would work because isn't it still free shipping since the customer isn't paying for it? It isn't free to Amazon and that's not what the free part is for. So negative shipping is still free shipping.

Re: FAA bans the use of drones to deliver packages

#54

Post by bri3d »

newaccountfool wrote: post #50
bri3d wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope! http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/media/model_aircraf... UASes fall under the guise of "model aircraft" when operated as a hobby, but as soon as they're operated commercially, they're in their own, specifically defined class of aircraft, as clarified in 2007 (and linked in this comment's sibling). That's why quadcopter video operators often employ humorous (and probably not legally workable) workarounds…

Regulating a commercial RCPlane or Multicopter, is it not just a way to extract more cash? No matter what training you have to go through if the aircraft is coming out of the sky its coming out of the sky. Now I know you can try to mitigate it with teaching but the hundreds of things that can go wrong with these aircraft is spectacular. In the uk when doing commercial flying tests your meant to bring the aircraft you…

Flying over densely populated areas, around other aerial operations, and over property is obviously more dangerous than flying in the middle of nowhere - there are approaches to risk mitigation that aren't "teach people how not to crash."

I think these should be regulated, even though I own and fly several quadcopters and fixed wing planes regularly. Model aircraft have gone well in the US for the last 30ish years because people tend to self-regulate and the hobby hasn't been very big. Now that every Silicon Valley joker wants in on a perceived gold rush and DJI Phantoms work well and are available for a relatively low cost, hobby flying is moving into dangerous populated areas and the density of R/C craft is increasing.

I don't trust the FAA to correctly regulate these, and I see a very depressing day where I won't be able to fly as a hobbyist, but I also see an unregulated future where regulation-skirting companies (maybe they'll "crowdsource drone pilots" or something similarly "sharing economy"-esque) accidentally hit people with drones and basically say "so sorry, sucker!"

As for your latter point, that's basically what happens here, too. Lots of TV and commercials are filmed using drones, but the production company either sells the footage as "found footage" or rents out some non-drone piece of equipment (camera, memory card, etc.) from a drone owner at an exorbitant rate with the understanding that the rest covers the drone rental.

Re: FAA bans the use of drones to deliver packages

#55

Post by lutorm »

I'm curious, do the people who think that they should be allowed to fly their unmanned aircraft without restrictions also think that they should be allowed to fly their manned aircraft without restrictions, or should the rules be different because the pilot is on the ground rather than in the vehicle itself?

Re: FAA bans the use of drones to deliver packages

#57

Post by gtirloni »

bri3d wrote: post #29
baddox wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The case is being appealed, but isn't the most recent decision the one with legal power, until another decision is made upon appeal? But even more generally, I should have said the FAA has no clear legal authority to regulate small unmanned aircraft. The FAA obviously claims that it does have certain legal abilities, and points to certain laws to argue their case [0]. [0] http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/2014-0…

In this case the appeal stays the decision: http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId... Definitely agree with your second point - according to most observers, the FAA's authority to regulate small (model-sized) UAVs is tenuous at best. They're generally not expected to win their appeal.

It's a valid point but does it matter in reality? If it's not the FAA's then some other govt agency (or even a new one) will regulate things that fly around in our cities. The way I see it, the FAA is just getting ahead of future events.

Re: FAA bans the use of drones to deliver packages

#58

Post by bdamm »

ars wrote: post #19
jkaljundi wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also motorcycles, airplanes, some cars and quite many people.

And motorcycles with defective mufflers should be banned. Airplanes are already heavily restricted in where they can fly.

Motorcycles with defective (or removed) mufflers are banned in most places.

Airplanes with defective mufflers should be banned too.

Re: FAA bans the use of drones to deliver packages

#59

Post by wavefunction »

bri3d wrote: post #54
newaccountfool wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regulating a commercial RCPlane or Multicopter, is it not just a way to extract more cash? No matter what training you have to go through if the aircraft is coming out of the sky its coming out of the sky. Now I know you can try to mitigate it with teaching but the hundreds of things that can go wrong with these aircraft is spectacular. In the uk when doing commercial flying tests your meant to bring the aircraft you…

Flying over densely populated areas, around other aerial operations, and over property is obviously more dangerous than flying in the middle of nowhere - there are approaches to risk mitigation that aren't "teach people how not to crash." I think these should be regulated, even though I own and fly several quadcopters and fixed wing planes regularly. Model aircraft have gone well in the US for the last 30ish years be…

Why don't you expect the FAA to "correctly regulate" drones? They've done a great job regulating commercial passenger and freight planes, leading to an excellent safety record for these vehicles.

Re: FAA bans the use of drones to deliver packages

#60

Post by bri3d »

esbonsa wrote: post #56
jkaljundi wrote: post #3

FAA has never allowed the use of drones to deliver packages. The right headline would be "The FAA does still not allow use of drones to deliver packages."

Which law are you talking about?

http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/reg/media/frnotice_...

This 2007 policy document clarifies the FAA's stance about drone operations, citing various FAA notices and arguing that commercially flown drones are subject to the standard Part 91 aircraft regulations and none are approved - thus, making them illegal.

http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/media/model_aircraf...

This 2012 notice clarifies the FAA's stance that model aircraft are not all aircraft under 55lbs, but rather those that are flown by hobbyists non-commercially, again citing various FAA notices (but no actual rules).

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/112/hr658

The FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012 gives the FAA explicit authority to regulate Unmanned Aerial Systems and requires that they implement rules within a certain timeframe (as yet, no rules are implemented - they work through this process: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_Procedure_Act ).

The FAA tried to fine a high-profile UAV operator (the founder of Team Black Sheep): http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2014/03/07/faa-...

The lowest NTSB court ruled that the FAA's current UAS regulations are unenforceable as the FAA's attempt relied on Notices to Airmen and FAA Policy documents, but no actual enforceable FAA Rules. However, the FAA appealed which immediately stays the decision (due to the procedure for NTSB proceedings).

Observers expect the appeal to fail, but by the time the court proceedings are complete there's a good chance that the FAA's actual Rules will be in place.

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