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A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

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Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#361

Post by maratd »

u124556 wrote: post #270
maratd wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this specific story is staged in Atlanta, this is happening throughout the country, in every state. We need to stop the demented practice of selling surplus military equipment to local police departments. We're not saving money. Cops don't need armored cars, drones, grenades, etc.

But who are the weapon makers going to sell to? Won't somebody think of the weapon makers!

> But who are the weapon makers going to sell to?

They already sold the equipment to the federal government. The federal government is simply getting rid of stuff they don't want. If anything, this practice hurts them by flooding the market with used goods.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#362

Post by msie »

Joeri wrote: post #234
jnbiche wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Second, dealers are, by and large, bad people for other reasons. Your suburban pot dealer isn't the target of no-knock raids. The targets are guys with long rap sheets of felony convictions, often for violent crimes. This may (or may not) be true in Atlanta, but in South Carolina, it's demonstrably untrue. We had a wave of SWAT raids from 2006-2010 on poker games, culminating in this: http://pokerati.com/2010/11/pok…

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. When a police department forms a swat team, they're going to use it, even for minor offenses.

Heh, I misread this as: "When all you have is a hummer,"

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#363

Post by arethuza »

dingaling wrote: post #349
arethuza wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I was also contemplating some kind of dismissive reply then I remembered I am reading an excellent book about the Saville Inquiry into Bloody Sunday (which I am old enough to just remember happening) and decided not to make that kind of comment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29 [Yes, it was a long time ago, but I don't think anything about our society here in the UK has changed to such an…

That was an exceptional episode in a period when NI was basically in a state of civil breakdown. I don't think you can extrapolate from that one datum. It was an unfortunate coincidence at a point in time of aggressive soldiers, civil disobedience, no-go-areas and the presence of armed PIRA units. For the next 30 years of 'troubles' there was never an action like that again by regular army forces, despite constant pr…

I agree, I don't think that they are directly comparable - I was merely commenting on the fact that it is easy for us Europeans to make snide comments about the level of armed violence in the US when we actually have occasional outbursts of extreme levels of violence here, even if the overall level is much lower.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#364

Post by hackuser »

seanmccann wrote: post #83
iagooar wrote: post #25

When I read stuff like this, I'm really happy that I am not living in the US. It sounds so crazy to a European person, I can't really imagine how Americans manage to normally live their lives.

I live in the US and have never had to deal with this and live a normal life. I am by no means defending this, in fact I think it's disgusting and awful, but it's not happening on every single street in the county. Yet.

> I live in the US and have never had to deal with this and live a normal life. I am by no means defending this, in fact I think it's disgusting and awful, but it's not happening on every single street in the county. Yet.

I think that's how they get away with it politically. For the politically powerful and even most of the middle class, it's only something they see on the news occasionally.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#365

Post by ssmoot »

freehunter wrote: post #162
tinkerrr wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is happening in most parts of the country. See http://www.cato.org/raidmap (more "neutral" source welcome, if someone has another information source/raw data link).

In 2014 there have been two. In 2012, none. 2013 isn't even listed as an option. Deaths from cars hitting wildlife happens all around the country but I wouldn't say that's representative of the state of the country, nor do most of the citizens live in fear of this happening. These raids are a problem, yes, but in a thread with a European commenting that they think this represents America, your link doesn't really sup…

There was no death in this case (yet).

The previous comment was referring to the raids in general (at least how I read it). And those are actually not all that uncommon.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#366

Post by arethuza »

mercurial wrote: post #324
arethuza wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I was also contemplating some kind of dismissive reply then I remembered I am reading an excellent book about the Saville Inquiry into Bloody Sunday (which I am old enough to just remember happening) and decided not to make that kind of comment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29 [Yes, it was a long time ago, but I don't think anything about our society here in the UK has changed to such an…

I'll raise you this [1], 11 years before Bloody Sunday. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961

That was dreadful and I feel slightly ashamed for never having heard of it! The response of the policeman who said:

"What happened on 17 October 1961 and in the following days against the peaceful demonstrators, on which no weapons were found, morally forces us to bring our testimony and to alert public opinion... All guilty people must be punished. The punishment must be extended to all of the responsible people, those who give orders, those who feign of letting it happen, whatever their high office may be.."

reminds me of the coroner at the inquest for the Bloody Sunday victims, himself a former Army officer:

"They were shooting innocent people. These people may have been taking part in a march that was banned but that does not justify the troops coming in and firing live rounds indiscriminately. I would say without hesitation that it was sheer, unadulterated murder. It was murder."

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#367

Post by thwest »

jacquesm wrote: post #117
rwmj wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One interesting thing is how long it will take to get rid of these sorts of things once the war on (some) drugs ends.

What makes you think it will ever end?

General optimism, hoping that certain culture wars (the 60s) will age out generationally, some positive evidence from countries with harm reduction focuses (Portugal).

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#368

Post by clarkmoody »

kika wrote: post #332
clarkmoody wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you reaching that conclusion, may I ask?

I'd appreciate if you'll find a flaw in the following: 1. Officer wants to return home no matter what. 2. He/she decides to use as much firepower as possible to achieve that - 50 cal guns, military grade armor, armored cards, explosives, grenades, rockets, whatever. 3. I have a risk of getting caught in the situation like this. I live in bad neighborhood, my brother sells weed, I had police encounters in the past, wh…

Well if you are in the home of someone who deals drugs, then you are placing yourself at risk. To achieve (4), you must either a) move elsewhere or b) cooperate with police to arrest your brother. I'm assuming you are currently not doing anything overtly illegal yourself.

If you do (5), then the police simply bring that shiny new MRAP they got from the DoD and park it in your yard and turn on some spotlights. Then they get on the loudspeaker and have you come out with your hands up. If you fire up your heavy weaponry to oppose them, then you will surely fail to maintain (4).

Remember, this whole thing got started because the police thought they might face armed resistance. If you have a nice paper trail of armor and high caliber weapons leading to your door, then the police will simply bring the proper amount of firepower to assure their success. So, I disagree that escalation of arms gets you anything in the long run regarding this SWAT business.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#369

Post by dllthomas »

Bootvis wrote: post #314
chc wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so, to the best of my knowledge, 1 kg of cocaine is worth about $20K. Assuming cocaine has roughly the density of baking soda, this amount ought to be easily disposable in a single flush. So you could flush $100K worth of coke down a toilet in under a minute.

Seems optimistic to me. If you flush in rapid succession the reservoir has to fill again. I guess that a good flush requires, depending on circumstances, 20s of refilling. That would lower the throughput significantly. Also, the suspect has to move the cocaine from hiding to the toilet. Sure, $20K is a lot of money but were not talking Pablo Escobar-like quantities here. Edit: also clogging, not sure when this happen…

"not really willing to experiment."

That would be an interesting use for all those seized drugs. I wonder if they do this.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#370

Post by SilasX »

berberous wrote: post #257
freehunter wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's unconstitutional as a violation of due process, to suspend officers without pay, before they have been adjudicated as having done something wrong. Bullshit. The police can throw me in jail before a trial, preventing me from going to work. How's that not a violation of due process? >It's probably unconstitutional to impose forfeiture of vested interests as punishment for a crime. True. You could sue them for eno…

> Bullshit. The police can throw me in jail before a trial, preventing me from going to work. How's that not a violation of due process? The amount of process due is largely determined by case law, with judges using a balancing test that balances several factors. Most to the point in your hypo, one of the factors is the government interest involved. The government has a much stronger interest in detaining a possible…

The issue was about cutting off one's livelihood before conviction, and the inconsistency in saying that it's okay to do that to normals, but a horrible atrocity to do the police.
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