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A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

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Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#81
post #33
post #25

When I read stuff like this, I'm really happy that I am not living in the US. It sounds so crazy to a European person, I can't really imagine how Americans manage to normally live their lives.

You know, I was about to type a kind of snarky reply along the lines of "Ukraine is still in Europe, no?" and then I realized I had to pick the country in Europe that is literally in the midst of a civil war to get to a comparable situation. Sigh.

Indeed, I was also contemplating some kind of dismissive reply then I remembered I am reading an excellent book about the Saville Inquiry into Bloody Sunday (which I am old enough to just remember happening) and decided not to make that kind of comment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29

[Yes, it was a long time ago, but I don't think anything about our society here in the UK has changed to such an extent that would make this fundamentally impossible.]

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you being serious? In Mexico the narco terrorists pulled innocent people off of a bus and made them pit fight to the death for their amusement. http://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/article/Mexican-crook... In the middle ages they would impale you on a spike so that you died slowly over days. In Rwanda one tribe butchered 5 million people of another tribe with machetes. An that's just examples I can think of off…

You do realize you're comparing the present day United States law enforcement with Rwandean tribes, Mexican narco-terrorists and the middle ages?

> You do realize you're comparing the present day United States law enforcement with Rwandean tribes, Mexican narco-terrorists and the middle ages?

Yes, they are all members of the same species. "Humanity" is a thin veneer over the top of a very selfish, very violent animal.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#83
post #25

When I read stuff like this, I'm really happy that I am not living in the US. It sounds so crazy to a European person, I can't really imagine how Americans manage to normally live their lives.

I live in the US and have never had to deal with this and live a normal life. I am by no means defending this, in fact I think it's disgusting and awful, but it's not happening on every single street in the county. Yet.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you located?

South Africa (Pretoria). And by, I've had that happen to me, I mean Police intimidation, not a flashbang in my chest. For that sort of thing see Palestine, Iraq etc However we see abuse of Police power very often here.

You can see police intimidation everywhere. Even in Slovenia and other EU countries, I believe. But there is a difference between "go home, you're drunk" (even though you have a legal right to be there) and "BANG! BANG!".

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#85

I'm struggling to understand how any of the officers on the SWAT team - or, for that matter, those who formulated the policies to use tools like M-16s and flash grenades in drug raids - could possibly consider their actions to be less serious than someone taking or dealing in drugs.

You're missing the social context here. First, this is never about using it's about dealing. Police enforcement efforts are almost entirely preoccupied with trafficking. Second, dealers are, by and large, bad people for other reasons. Your suburban pot dealer isn't the target of no-knock raids. The targets are guys with long rap sheets of felony convictions, often for violent crimes.

Drugs are a proxy in a war between police and gangs. Atlanta had 81 murders in 2013, versus 82 for London, which has 20x the population. To an extent the drug trade causes some of this violence, but it's just the tip of the iceberg. Atlanta is in a former slave-holding state and was segregated as recently as the 1970's. It's a city where 27% of residents, and 31% of children, are below the poverty line. Poverty is highly correlated with race: 33% of blacks and hispanics versus only 8% of whites. It's a city where 76% of poor families are led by women with no husband present.

Between the history of oppression and the massive racial disparity in the incidence of poverty, there is zero trust between the black majority and the white minority (which holds a majority of the economic and political power). This lack of trust is at the root of much of the conflict. Black and hispanic communities are unhappy with the crime, but also, arguably for good reasons, don't help the police shut down the gangs. At the same time, wealthier whites support the aggressive enforcement because they are scared and the negative side-effects don't happen in their neighborhoods.

This is not to justify no-knock raids for drug enforcement, but to help illuminate the mindset of the officers involved and how they justify their actions. I am in favor of deescalating the drug war, but that's just the first step in normalizing our cities, which see violence that is without comparison in the developed world.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you being serious? In Mexico the narco terrorists pulled innocent people off of a bus and made them pit fight to the death for their amusement. http://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/article/Mexican-crook... In the middle ages they would impale you on a spike so that you died slowly over days. In Rwanda one tribe butchered 5 million people of another tribe with machetes. An that's just examples I can think of off…

You do realize you're comparing the present day United States law enforcement with Rwandean tribes, Mexican narco-terrorists and the middle ages?

It's kind of sad to realize that modern day police are comparable (at least in terms of inhumanity) to middle age torture.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#87
post #27

This was the result of a no-knock warrant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant , which allows police to enter a home without prior warning, on the theory that giving notice will allow people inside to destroy evidence. They are almost uniquely a product of the drug war. One can imagine very few situations outside of drugs were evidence could be so easily destroyed as to justify a no-knock warrant.

It's a really stupid theory. Destroying evidence is just another charge to throw on and doesn't really suggest any risk of violence. Though sure, if they flush in time maybe the police lose out. But it hardly seems worth it. It ought to be possible to serve warrant without instigating a violent encounter. And it's not like the risk of destruction of evidence is anything new. You could easily destroy evidence well bef…

Also in general the severity of the charge is directly proportional to the quantity of drugs. So if the quantity is instantly flushable, how serious of a charge can it have been, and thus how much accidental damage is acceptable in the arrest?

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be a non-violent crime, probably. Non-violent crimes shouldn't result in swat teams.

Non-violent crimes turn into violent standoffs when the police routinely respond to them with aggressive raids. This is completely a product of escalation between the illegal gangs and the 'legal' gang.

Yes. A non-swat approach is pretty simple:

Observe the location in an unmarked police car and wait for the suspect to leave, then enter to acquire the evidence.

No confrontation required.

There is no real urgency that justifies a raid when no one is in any danger of violent harm.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#89

I'm struggling to understand how any of the officers on the SWAT team - or, for that matter, those who formulated the policies to use tools like M-16s and flash grenades in drug raids - could possibly consider their actions to be less serious than someone taking or dealing in drugs.

Maybe there needs to be more publicity about drug gangs and the slaves created by the drug cartels. They exist, and they are heinous. But so too are these kinds of reactions from the police. Its really as if the public are caught in the middle of two horrific forces, being created on both ends of the playing field. The question is: who profits? The cold hard answer, which nobody wants to admit is this: the dealers of…

Your stakeholder analysis is not complete.

Cops profit. Lawyers profit. DAs profit. Tough-on-crime politicians profit. Religions profit. Government profits. Political parties profit.

Basically, the whole establishment profits from maintaining status quo in the drug war.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#90
1. This happened in rural Georgia, far away from Atlanta.

2. The suspect was later arrested for dealing meth. This isn't a little dime bag situation as the clearly biased writer would have you believe.

3. This isn't the suspect's first arrest, he was arrested before for distribution. Police found an AK-47 in his house.

Here are things that could have been done to prevent this situation. 1. The homeowner could have not dealt meth. 2. The parents could have not moved in with their AK-47 owning, meth dealing nephew.

Here are some likely other outcomes even if the SWAT raid didn't occur: 1. One of homeowner's guns could have accidentally discharged and killed the child. 2. Criminals could have robbed the house (a higher likelihood when you are running a drug ring out of your house) and killed the child.

That poor child's situation is a direct product of irresponsible parenting. There was a reason the police were at this house. Their tactics and the damage they did would have not been remotely possible if this guy wasn't armed with illegal weaponry and dealing drugs.

This isn't reddit. America is not out to get you. Don't be a criminal and don't associate with criminals and this doesn't happen to you.

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