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A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

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Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#341

Post by angersock »

squozzer wrote: post #277
jonnathanson wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Police believe themselves to be at war. Not with one-off groups of armed bank robbers, per se, but with heavily militarized cartels and street gangs like MS-13. If an ordinary police unit knocked on the door of an MS-13 safe house, they'd probably be met with heavily armed resistance. The problems here are numerous. First, because this was not a cartel safe house, and any degree of diligence sufficient to ob…

The police believe themselves to be at war with everyone. They'd kill anyone they pleased if they could get away with it.

I don't think that that's quite a reasonable take on things either--I do not believe that officers wake up every day going "Man, I hope I get to shoot some kids today".

Such hyperbole makes it harder to understand their position and hence to effect useful change.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#342

Post by wdmeldon »

chc wrote: post #229
danielsiders wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also in general the severity of the charge is directly proportional to the quantity of drugs. So if the quantity is instantly flushable, how serious of a charge can it have been, and thus how much accidental damage is acceptable in the arrest?

OK, so, to the best of my knowledge, 1 kg of cocaine is worth about $20K. Assuming cocaine has roughly the density of baking soda, this amount ought to be easily disposable in a single flush. So you could flush $100K worth of coke down a toilet in under a minute.

Imagine pushing 5kg worth of cocaine down a toilet while, most likely, incredibly strung out on said cocaine, with the SWAT team beating on your door. Couple that with the fact that they likely aren't stored in easy to open bags designed for pouring and what you're looking at is a bathroom full cocaine and a seriously clogged toilet. You've got to get rid of the plastic too, remember.

Maybe they bust you with less, but they'll still bust you.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#343

Post by EpicEng »

thathonkey wrote: post #306
EpicEng wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that simply not true. Do you know how much a kilo of coke costs? We're talking ~20k USD. You could easily flush that, and low level street guys don't have kilos lying around, not even close. If you have access to that kind of quantity you know people who are pretty high up. Not to mention the fact that the penalty for such an amount is on the order of 10 years in prison (of course, that depends on a lot of fac…

Sorry, I think you're missing my point that is even if somehow they could flush the entire amount of the illicit substance in time, they probably have other items on hand that would be just as good from an evidence perspective. For example, you can't flush a scale down the toilet. If we're talking low-level or mid-level dealers, chances are they have a quantity of pre-packaged amounts of their product on hand and may…

A scale with a bit of powder on it does not demand 10+ years in prison. A gun, if registered (and it's not like all dealers have illegal guns) carries no penalty in and of itself.

They (the cops) need something to barter with. You're much more likely to get useful information from someone facing 10+ years than someone facing 1 year (6 months with good behavior) or probation. They want to find everything.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#344

Post by erbo »

rayiner wrote: post #160
erbo wrote: post #129

This should outrage any thinking citizen. We need a new policy for instances of excessive use of force by police: if any such is suspected, all officers involved must be immediately suspended, without pay, while an impartial judge, not a police "Internal Affairs Division" (since police officers too often try to "protect their own"), investigates to see whether the claim is justified. If it's not, the officer(s) can b…

This is just senseless ranting. 1) It's unconstitutional, as a violation of due process, to suspend officers without pay, before they have been adjudicated as having done something wrong. 2) It's probably unconstitutional to impose forfeiture of vested interests as punishment for a crime. 3) Premediated murder requires specific intent to kill. Even if the kid had died, it would most likely be negligent homicide. 4) R…

(1) Nothing prohibits officers from having to agree to these policies when they join the force. If they don't like it, they can find another job. Members of the military already have to give up certain rights while serving.

(2) A public pension is a public trust. Why should someone who has violated that trust be allowed to keep any interest in it?

(3) Those officers intended to use the force they did when they stormed that residence. That's premeditation. Even if I concede that point, though, negligent homicide still carries a hefty prison sentence.

(4) Giving those legal protections to police has given them the attitude that they are "above the law." This needs to be changed. Big time.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#345

Post by hyperliner »

giardini wrote: post #285
clarkmoody wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the mentality among the police is "I'm going home tonight, no matter what." Given the opportunity to wear body armor and carry a rifle when confronting a perceived threat, many will take it.

This. Background: it's long been known that law enforcement officers (LEOs) are _safer_ on the job than non-LEOs. Only an unfortunate few die in violent encounters with the criminal elements. When LEOs scream about how dangerous their job is, they're almost always asking for a pay raise. Nonetheless, there was a time in the not-so-remote past when LEOs _consciously__accepted_ the possibility that they might die or be…

You must live in the comfortable confines of tranquil suburbia americana. Stay there. Don't wake up. Be happy. It's better for you that way. Have another latte.

Like the rest who must escape to reality on a daily basis, I rather have a) My gun with me, and b) A cop by my side.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#346

Post by jaynos »

metacorrector wrote: post #119
rayiner wrote: post #27

This was the result of a no-knock warrant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant , which allows police to enter a home without prior warning, on the theory that giving notice will allow people inside to destroy evidence. They are almost uniquely a product of the drug war. One can imagine very few situations outside of drugs were evidence could be so easily destroyed as to justify a no-knock warrant.

I don't agree, the grenade that was thrown is not part of no-knock, it's because of the extreme violence that gang style criminals are apt to use. You could have no-knock raids to capture evidence without needing to stun everybody.

Wouldn't it be reasonable to observe the house for a while before a raid? That's where you pick up on clues as to who lives there. "Hmmm, seems to be a lot of small children here and not too many gang style criminals. Ok, team, we go in fast, but force probably won't be necessary." Oh, wait. This type of thinking would probably prevent the no-knock raid to begin with.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#347

Post by giarc »

DrJones1098 wrote: post #39
giarc wrote: post #10

These stories seem fake to me. I know they are real but I have trouble believing that people, human beings would actually act like this. Why do we have people acting as police that wouldn't let a mother comfort her crying, very injured child. They weren't after her, she wasn't the criminal.

Are you being serious? In Mexico the narco terrorists pulled innocent people off of a bus and made them pit fight to the death for their amusement. http://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/article/Mexican-crook... In the middle ages they would impale you on a spike so that you died slowly over days. In Rwanda one tribe butchered 5 million people of another tribe with machetes. An that's just examples I can think of off…

You are providing examples of aggressors, not protectors.

Every police officer on active duty right now begin their career with the idea they are to protect their citizens. This doesn't seem like the case in the original article. To me it sounds like people that have lost the intent of their job.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#348

Post by short_circut »

Floegipoky wrote: post #269
metacorrector wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree, the grenade that was thrown is not part of no-knock, it's because of the extreme violence that gang style criminals are apt to use. You could have no-knock raids to capture evidence without needing to stun everybody.

It's technically possible, but in practice that's never how it works. The entire purpose behind no-knock is to take them by surprise before they can even think about resisting. They use immediately overwhelming "non-lethal" force so that they never have to escalate to a "lethal" level. Obviously the definitions of these terms are imprecise at best. Believe it or not, this is the safest way to do "no-knock" for everyo…

Unfortunately there are several stories floating around where the law abiding gun owner was at the far end of the house and had enough time to get a gun out and fire through the door at the calamity coming forth. Which has frequently lead to the death and/or life time conviction of said law abiding gun owner. This might be ok if it weren't for the frequency with which these law abiding gun owners had their homes mistakenly raided.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#349

Post by dingaling »

arethuza wrote: post #81
wdewind wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I was about to type a kind of snarky reply along the lines of "Ukraine is still in Europe, no?" and then I realized I had to pick the country in Europe that is literally in the midst of a civil war to get to a comparable situation. Sigh.

Indeed, I was also contemplating some kind of dismissive reply then I remembered I am reading an excellent book about the Saville Inquiry into Bloody Sunday (which I am old enough to just remember happening) and decided not to make that kind of comment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29 [Yes, it was a long time ago, but I don't think anything about our society here in the UK has changed to such an…

That was an exceptional episode in a period when NI was basically in a state of civil breakdown. I don't think you can extrapolate from that one datum.

It was an unfortunate coincidence at a point in time of aggressive soldiers, civil disobedience, no-go-areas and the presence of armed PIRA units.

For the next 30 years of 'troubles' there was never an action like that again by regular army forces, despite constant provocation and attacks against them.

The SWAT / armed police raids, on the other hand, are occurring every day in the USA.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#350

Post by giarc »

vlunkr wrote: post #48
DrJones1098 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you being serious? In Mexico the narco terrorists pulled innocent people off of a bus and made them pit fight to the death for their amusement. http://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/article/Mexican-crook... In the middle ages they would impale you on a spike so that you died slowly over days. In Rwanda one tribe butchered 5 million people of another tribe with machetes. An that's just examples I can think of off…

I think what he's trying to say is that all those things seem so surreal. We believe them, but reading the stories feels like you're reading something out of a movie. For people living in normal circumstances it's hard to imagine that some people are so cruel.

Exactly. I always read these stories and think... Is this the onion? Am I reading comedy?

For example, there was a story where a school aged child was suspended for using his hand as a gun and aiming it at other children. I just couldn't comprehend the idea that a principal would think that action justified suspending a child. Perhaps a detention and a stern warning, maybe.

I want to believe that journalists will leave out part of the stories that explains the harsh actions, that makes you say "Ok, I can understand why the principal did that", but when more and more of these stories are published, it becomes harder to believe.

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