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A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

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Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#251

Post by aestra »

arethuza wrote: post #81
wdewind wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I was about to type a kind of snarky reply along the lines of "Ukraine is still in Europe, no?" and then I realized I had to pick the country in Europe that is literally in the midst of a civil war to get to a comparable situation. Sigh.

Indeed, I was also contemplating some kind of dismissive reply then I remembered I am reading an excellent book about the Saville Inquiry into Bloody Sunday (which I am old enough to just remember happening) and decided not to make that kind of comment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29 [Yes, it was a long time ago, but I don't think anything about our society here in the UK has changed to such an…

The Srebrenica massacre was less than 20 years ago.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#252

Post by latj »

300bps wrote: post #173
rayiner wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just senseless ranting. 1) It's unconstitutional, as a violation of due process, to suspend officers without pay, before they have been adjudicated as having done something wrong. 2) It's probably unconstitutional to impose forfeiture of vested interests as punishment for a crime. 3) Premediated murder requires specific intent to kill. Even if the kid had died, it would most likely be negligent homicide. 4) R…

The biggest problem with the rant is that it only attacks symptoms of the underlying disease. The underlying disease is the nonsensical War On Drugs. End that and most of these symptoms go away on their own.

No, the war on drugs is not the root cause. If there was no war on drugs there would be a war on alcohol or gambling or sex or homelessness...

- Who benefits from a war on drugs?

1. prison industrial complex - guard unions, vendors for food, uniforms

2. drug cartels - controlling supply like DeBeers does with diamonds

3. drug enforcement agencies (see above)

4. fear mongers - anyone who uses fear as an argument in debate over immigration, gun rights/control, war

- Why does this work?

Some citizens do not recognize that it is happening, some don't know how change it, some are too busy trying to survive.

- Why dont people know that stuff?

Lack of critical thinking skills, logic, applied math.

- Why?

Our schools are segregated by race and wealth. Our curriculum is geared towards testing instead of teaching. Our teachers are poor. Our students are hot in the summer, cold in the winter, and always tired and hungry.

Conclusion: The root cause is that our system of governance has been allowed to become corrupt due to a largely uneducated and poor citizenry.

We are one of the most prosperous nations in the history of humanity.

Why are we poor and uneducated?

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#253

Post by refurb »

iagooar wrote: post #25

When I read stuff like this, I'm really happy that I am not living in the US. It sounds so crazy to a European person, I can't really imagine how Americans manage to normally live their lives.

Go onto youtube and search for "german police beating". There are hours of footage of German police kicking the crap out of protesters (punches to the face, etc). The German police are notorious for being very physical.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#254

Post by opendais »

chc wrote: post #199
opendais wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) And how does raiding their place when they aren't there for evidence somehow result in this violence you speak of? 2) You think the people in this article were "hard drug ring members"? http://www.ajc.com/news/news/lawsuit-clayton-swat-grenade-ba... You mean like this guy with "an ounce or less of marijuana"? I think you have no idea what you are talking about. They aren't being used for "hard drugs" they are bein…

This seems so disconnected from my comment that I'm not even sure you responded to the right one. Either you mis-replied or you have mentally transformed me into a bizarre caricature of what people who don't completely agree with you must be like.

Me:

> It would be a non-violent crime, probably. Non-violent crimes shouldn't result in swat teams.

Where in here do you see 'hard drug ring'? Or 'hard drugs'?

You:

> I don't think "nonviolent" is a good description of a lot of hard drug rings. They aren't being violent right at the moment, but if they see a cop standing outside the door, they very well might just shoot him. No-knock warrants are by and large a horrible thing and SWAT teams are drastically overused, but that doesn't make the problem they are meant to address any less real.

> This seems so disconnected from my comment that I'm not even sure you responded to the right one. Either you mis-replied or you have mentally transformed me into a bizarre caricature of what people who don't completely agree with you must be like.

Funny, I thought that is what your comment was.

I was talking about no knock warrants on nonviolent crimes and you make the false claim I was talking about armed, hard drug criminal organizations. That somehow them being "overused" makes the problem "less real".

I never claimed the problem wasn't real either. I claimed they shouldn't be used in relation to non-violent crimes/criminals in general.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#255

Post by scurvyscott »

iambateman wrote: post #123

Caveat: I don't support frequent use of no-knock warrants. That said, this is another article on the story: http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/30/us/georgia-toddler-injured-stu... According to CNN, the offender had sold meth to an informant "a few hours earlier" at the house and had a previous felony weapons charge. Their target is a meth dealer who brings a gun to the table. Given that information, it seems less crazy to th…

I'm of the opinion that just because someone is a drug dealer and has been known to carry a weapon, doesn't mean that person is going to get in a shoot out with the police. I'd be willing to bet (note: I've not seen any hard statistics on this matter) that 9 times out of 10 the criminal decides that it's in his/her better interest to just be arrested and fight it later, than it is to get in a gun battle with heavily armed cops. It's an interesting thing that typical police line of thinking goes something like: 1: person MAY be a criminal of some form 2: person MAY have a weapon 3: person MAY use said weapon in a futile attempt to avoid arrest or injury 4: let's get 10 cops, arm them to the teeth, storm their house in a disorienting and scary middle of the night raid, during which we will throw explosives, brandish military type weapons, and yell and act aggressively 5: there is less of a chance that during the raid a criminal will react violently than if the police do not break in in the middle of the night screaming and waving guns

I'm not trying to be "that condescending dick" and I sympathize with what you're saying, I'm just saying I disagree with "put yourself in their position".

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#256

Post by rqebmm »

jeroen94704 wrote: post #109
peterkelly wrote: post #20

I'm struggling to understand how any of the officers on the SWAT team - or, for that matter, those who formulated the policies to use tools like M-16s and flash grenades in drug raids - could possibly consider their actions to be less serious than someone taking or dealing in drugs.

That, exactly. And I simply cannot fathom how the response to a flash-bang grenade in a cot with a child in it can ever be "well, obviously there was no way for us to know there were children, so don't blame us" instead of "OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE WE DONE WE'RE SO SORRY!"

lawsuits, that's how.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#257

Post by berberous »

freehunter wrote: post #169
rayiner wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just senseless ranting. 1) It's unconstitutional, as a violation of due process, to suspend officers without pay, before they have been adjudicated as having done something wrong. 2) It's probably unconstitutional to impose forfeiture of vested interests as punishment for a crime. 3) Premediated murder requires specific intent to kill. Even if the kid had died, it would most likely be negligent homicide. 4) R…

>It's unconstitutional as a violation of due process, to suspend officers without pay, before they have been adjudicated as having done something wrong. Bullshit. The police can throw me in jail before a trial, preventing me from going to work. How's that not a violation of due process? >It's probably unconstitutional to impose forfeiture of vested interests as punishment for a crime. True. You could sue them for eno…

> Bullshit. The police can throw me in jail before a trial, preventing me from going to work. How's that not a violation of due process?

The amount of process due is largely determined by case law, with judges using a balancing test that balances several factors.

Most to the point in your hypo, one of the factors is the government interest involved.

The government has a much stronger interest in detaining a possible flight risk and processing you through the criminal system than in suspending an officer's pay before some sort of notice and a hearing is given.

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#258

Post by [deleted] »

kika wrote: post #193
rayiner wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just senseless ranting. 1) It's unconstitutional, as a violation of due process, to suspend officers without pay, before they have been adjudicated as having done something wrong. 2) It's probably unconstitutional to impose forfeiture of vested interests as punishment for a crime. 3) Premediated murder requires specific intent to kill. Even if the kid had died, it would most likely be negligent homicide. 4) R…

> Premediated murder requires specific intent to kill. Even if the kid had died, it would most likely be negligent homicide. Honest question: I'm walking past the somebody's house with an assault grenade in my hand. I feel miserable and I throw the grenade into the window. 5 people die. Is that negligence? I didn't know whose house is it, is there any people there, etc.

[deleted]

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#259

Post by njharman »

> that we stop accepting brutal SWAT raids as a normal way to fight the “war on drugs.”

NO. Militarization et al are just symptoms. The deeper disease is the "War on drugs". Until we end the latest failed attempt at prohibition (and even deeper stop declaring "wars" on things (and even deeper become a rehabilitation/support society rather than punishment/control society)) we will suffer continuing collateral damage (erosion of rights, brutality, being a prison state, etc)

Re: A SWAT team blew a hole in my 2-year-old son

#260

Post by wdewind »

mikeash wrote: post #187
wdewind wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I was about to type a kind of snarky reply along the lines of "Ukraine is still in Europe, no?" and then I realized I had to pick the country in Europe that is literally in the midst of a civil war to get to a comparable situation. Sigh.

Belarus would probably qualify too, not that "repressive dictatorship" is a whole lot better for the comparison than "civil war". Anyway, us Americans manage to normally live our lives because stuff like this is rare. Remember: if you see it on the news, it is not common pretty much by definition . I'm far more worried about being run over by a truck or my house burning down than I am about being shot by the police.…

Flash banging children nearly to death is fortunately rare. Unfortunately no-knock warrants are less so: 50,000 in 2005 and rising. In a community that is hugely concerned with virtual privacy rights re: the NSA, we don't seem to spend much time caring about physical privacy rights, re: poor people having their houses broken into by state sponsored armed forces.
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