Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less • Hacker News Board

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#161

Post by encoderer » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 7:49 AM UTC

nawitus wrote: post #64

null_ptr wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, you learn the most in your first 6 months by quantity but that doesn't mean you learn the most valuable things. You won't learn anything of depth in half a year.

Can you give some concrete examples of in depth learning that one can't learn in a year?

Oh, lawd, help me.

Kidding. You ask a legitimate question. This is by no means a comprehensive answer, but...

1. Domain knowledge. I think most of us enjoy the creative and problem solving parts of software engineering. That takes domain knowledge and domain knowledge takes time. You will get an intro to your domain in a year, but mastery? I would bet against it.

2. Working on a hard project from start to finish and sticking around for the lessons learned after. This is just a math problem. You're useless for at least 30 days no matter how good you are. (More like 90 IMO...). So if you start working on a larger project with a new team, and that project takes 6 months, your year is ending rapidly.

3. Mastering truly large code bases. Not everything is a rails app. Some things are just hard. Mastery is difficult to achieve.

4. Engineering leadership. Even if you don't want to be on a management track, it's important for a seasoned, senior-level engineer to be able to lead/drive a project from start to finish.

...And I suppose you may think "But I do all of those." And maybe you do? Or maybe it's just really hard to see something that you're convinced isn't there.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#162

Post by CmonDev » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 7:59 AM UTC

cpprototypes wrote: post #75

Switching jobs works well when developers are in their 20's. But I've found in the 30's that a number of factors combine to make it much less attractive: 1) Each jump becomes less and less. There's an invisible salary cap for software engineers. By the time a software engineer is in their 30's, they've jumped a few times and are already close to the maximum. 2) There are costs associated with switching jobs. There's…

"For total compensation there seems to be two tiers of companies, the top tech (google, facebook, amazon, etc.) and everyone else" - not really, though, it's the financial sector. We are talking about global picture, right? Or is the discussion focused on just one single country?

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#163

Post by CmonDev » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 8:07 AM UTC

blinkingdot wrote: post #158

imaginenore wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google, Facebook, Amazon paying significantly more is a myth, even if you include all the "benefits" (most of which most of us would never use).

They pay significantly more. Microsoft is another that pays a lot, especially to poach from those three. It is not uncommon for a very good engineer with 5+ years experience to earn above $400K / year (total = base + bonus (if issued) + stocks).

But only in US.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#164

Post by CmonDev » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 8:17 AM UTC

thejdude wrote: post #51

serverascode wrote: post #8

I feel like the ability to job hop like this will be in fairly small, concentrated geographic areas. In areas that aren't as concentrated it'll end up being pretty hard to do this.

It's also a culture thing. In the USA, selling yourself like you're the absolute King is ok, but in Germany many people would consider you an arrogant snob that's full of it, if you pretend too hard. They'd also consider someone who job-hops every year to apparently not be able to take responsibility and do their job well, and maybe to be problematic to work with (or they'd not need to run so often). Switching jobs a…

Must be very comfortable for employers.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#165

Post by pjc50 » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 8:52 AM UTC

nugget wrote: post #98

cpprototypes wrote: post #75

Switching jobs works well when developers are in their 20's. But I've found in the 30's that a number of factors combine to make it much less attractive: 1) Each jump becomes less and less. There's an invisible salary cap for software engineers. By the time a software engineer is in their 30's, they've jumped a few times and are already close to the maximum. 2) There are costs associated with switching jobs. There's…

Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income. In some ways, this industry is awesome: to be able to make six figures in your early 20s is an incredible benefit and potential head start on financial independence. In other ways, this industry is incredibly cruel: you will run into age discrimination and the other headwinds mentioned in your mid 30s, if not earlier. I tell the folks I mentor to think of th…

save 50% of their after tax income

That rules out living in SF or London, for example.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#166

Post by sumedh » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 8:57 AM UTC

arkitaip wrote: post #11

lucisferre wrote: post #4

This is fascinating that there is actually hard evidence for this, but it's not surprising to me given my own experiences. When I first started out as an "intermediate" software developer (after a couple years as doing contract work) I was poached twice within a year of taking a position, both times the offers were at least 30% higher, an amount my existing employers where highly unlikely to match (in fact in the sec…

Have you seen any of Daniel Pink's work on what motivates people in business? It might inspire you to focus on other incentives than just pay salary increases. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y

Warren Buffett does not pay market salaries to his top level managers. Those managers can get a significant hike if they switch yet most stick with Buffett because they like working for him.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#167

Post by hessenwolf » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 9:05 AM UTC

megablast wrote: post #148

nugget wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income. In some ways, this industry is awesome: to be able to make six figures in your early 20s is an incredible benefit and potential head start on financial independence. In other ways, this industry is incredibly cruel: you will run into age discrimination and the other headwinds mentioned in your mid 30s, if not earlier. I tell the folks I mentor to think of th…

> Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income. As someone who travels overseas once or twice a year, goes out all the time, I still manage to save>50% of my income. I don't have a car, cycle everywhere, live in a great share house, always look for deals (for traveling and eating out), and stay in the cheaper hotels/bus it around.

Do you have a partner that agrees with that lifestyle? That is where my asceticism runs aground.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#168

Post by hessenwolf » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 9:08 AM UTC

nilkn wrote: post #119

hnriot wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I tell the folks I mentor to think of themselves as professional athletes with a 15, maybe 20 year career." what terrible advice! Please stop "mentoring" "Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income." I wonder how long it's been since you were young. While saving early is likely a good idea, it's also the time that student loans, young families, buying houses etc are all huge costs that very likely ma…

I actually think more people should act as if their career is going to end in 20 years. Thinking in these terms really drives home what you need to do if you want actual financial independence. Even if the goal is not realistically attainable, it shows you exactly where you stand. Let's say you think $1M is good enough for your notion of financial independence. Well, how can you accumulate that amount in 20 years? On…

I've done a lot of work in human longevity estimates. I strongly recommend you think of your life planning as lasting 60 years after college. If you think you can work twenty and live for forty off that, well for you.

There is a demographic shift and a lot of things are going to be different in 30 years. Plan for life-long learning and be able to be valuable in a changing environment. My 2c.

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#169

Post by warbastard » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 9:59 AM UTC

hessenwolf wrote: post #167

megablast wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income. As someone who travels overseas once or twice a year, goes out all the time, I still manage to save>50% of my income. I don't have a car, cycle everywhere, live in a great share house, always look for deals (for traveling and eating out), and stay in the cheaper hotels/bus it around.

Do you have a partner that agrees with that lifestyle? That is where my asceticism runs aground.

Exactly the same problem for me. It's hard to save when your partner doesn't want to do it for various reasons

Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less

#170

Post by Dartanion7 » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 10:14 AM UTC

thejdude wrote: post #45

GreenPlastic wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is a lot of people value the security or aren't aware of the difference between market and their pay. Let's say this is 80% of people. If you're corporate HR, you can retain 80% of your top talent without big pay increases and promotions while knowing that you'll lose the top 20%. This may be palatable whereas it wouldn't be if you were only retaining 60%. I think Google and FB were the first to figure out…

Depending on the job market it can also be very expensive (time vs yield) to hunt for job offers. If there are hardly any offers, and if the companies all look like rather bad employers, or the job looks like it will pay probably less than you already make, then you waste lots of time on nothing. So people just stay at their jobs. I'd really really like to have something like Stackoverflow jobs (i.e. well-described j…

I think the people doing the 2-year-hop are the ones with a lot of inbound interest. The last two jobs I've had (including my current job) came to me through a direct inquiry from someone at the company (not a recruiter / headhunter). The thing with consistent inbound interest is that it creates zero incentive for putting up with non-regular advancement / promotion (except the 'devil you don't know' risk, but that can be ameliorated by asking around. It's not hard to avoid a completely blind scenario) because the perception of "job hopping" becomes irrelevant. I suppose at some point the inbound interest might taper off but until it does, it's almost irresponsible to ignore better offers.