Things You Love are Made with Code • Hacker News Board

Re: Things You Love are Made with Code

#41

Post by enraged_camel » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 7:01 PM UTC

mrgn wrote: post #39

colmvp wrote: post #24

I'm curious, are there growing initiatives to make every career gender/race balanced? Because it seems like we're fixated on getting female representation in computer/mathematical occupations from 26.1% to 50%. Yet there are lot other occupations which have pretty low representations, i.e. only 1.6% of architects are black, 0.1% of judges/magistrates are Asian, only 1.8% of automotive repairers are women, only 5.2% o…

No, and the answer why should be blindingly obvious to any intelligent person: computer engineering (as opposed to your chosen examples of truck driving childcare, and auto repair) is among the most well-paid, economically influential, and entrepreneurial profession today, and will become increasingly so in the future. Gender and race representation is simply of less concern for less aspirational, lower-paid professi…

This is exactly it. When people say shit like, "why aren't we encouraging women to become garbage collectors because that profession is entirely male dominated" they just demonstrate that they haven't thought about the issue thoroughly and they think gender balance is something to aspire towards just for its own sake.

edit: Thanks for the downvotes. I must have hit a sensitive spot.

Re: Things You Love are Made with Code

#42

Post by adamnemecek » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 7:01 PM UTC

mrgn wrote: post #39

colmvp wrote: post #24

I'm curious, are there growing initiatives to make every career gender/race balanced? Because it seems like we're fixated on getting female representation in computer/mathematical occupations from 26.1% to 50%. Yet there are lot other occupations which have pretty low representations, i.e. only 1.6% of architects are black, 0.1% of judges/magistrates are Asian, only 1.8% of automotive repairers are women, only 5.2% o…

No, and the answer why should be blindingly obvious to any intelligent person: computer engineering (as opposed to your chosen examples of truck driving childcare, and auto repair) is among the most well-paid, economically influential, and entrepreneurial profession today, and will become increasingly so in the future. Gender and race representation is simply of less concern for less aspirational, lower-paid professi…

So it's about equality and equal gender representation only in well paying professions? Doesn't sound all that equal to me.

Re: Things You Love are Made with Code

#43

Post by mrgn » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 7:04 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #32

colmvp wrote: post #24

I'm curious, are there growing initiatives to make every career gender/race balanced? Because it seems like we're fixated on getting female representation in computer/mathematical occupations from 26.1% to 50%. Yet there are lot other occupations which have pretty low representations, i.e. only 1.6% of architects are black, 0.1% of judges/magistrates are Asian, only 1.8% of automotive repairers are women, only 5.2% o…

If we have more women in STEM then we must have less men in STEM unless we grow the total number of STEM jobs by the same amount. So those men who would otherwise be in STEM must move to other professions, which means they either move into other male dominated professions and make them even more unbalanced or there must be an equivalent push to move them into a female dominated industry. If we do the latter then a po…

Diversity isn't a zero sum game. STEM is one of the fastest growing professional fields, meaning more people--of any gender--will need to fill those jobs.

The goal is gender balance, there's no need to fear that a woman or a person of color accepting a newly created STEM job will somehow push a white man out of his existing position. Let's be realistic here.

Re: Things You Love are Made with Code

#44

Post by tjr » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 7:05 PM UTC

Lewisham wrote: post #27

thegeomaster wrote: post #18

While I commend initiatives like this, I don't think people should be so eager to make girls start coding. If your daughter shows no interest whatsoever after being exposed to coding, well, maybe it just isn't her cup of tea. It's the same with boys, of course. I know so much people who had been pressured into the same profession as their parents. Not all of them today love what they do. We should be helping kids dis…

I wish I remembered where the study was now, but I remember reading one which said that girls were naturally curious about STEM careers, up to around 12, when it starts to tail off dramatically. The theory was that societal issues begin to kick in that makes girls not want to: no role models, fellow students telling them it's for nerds and no girls do it, male jock stuff. So the curiosity and talent is just drained o…

Don't similar societal issues also turn off many boys to STEM around the same age? I was definitely not in the larger, more popular bunch of kids starting around 10 years old.

Re: Things You Love are Made with Code

#45

Post by acabrahams » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 7:08 PM UTC

schoen wrote: post #10

I'm curious about the use of the terminology "code/coding/coder" as distinct from "programming/programmer". I've noticed that a lot of recent programming outreach and education efforts consistently use "learn to code" instead of "learn to program". How come? What connotations do they perceive? Are they intending to refer to a broader set of activities (including document markup, which I wouldn't refer to as programmi…

I remember seeing some statistical evidence that women in particular are more responsive to ads to 'learn to code' than 'learn to program'[1], which would ring true with my personal experience where I notice I often describe myself as 'learning to code' rather than to program.

[1] But I can't remember where I saw it and googling hasn't helped me to find it... :/

Re: Things You Love are Made with Code

#46

Post by Dewie » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 7:10 PM UTC

mrgn wrote: post #39

colmvp wrote: post #24

I'm curious, are there growing initiatives to make every career gender/race balanced? Because it seems like we're fixated on getting female representation in computer/mathematical occupations from 26.1% to 50%. Yet there are lot other occupations which have pretty low representations, i.e. only 1.6% of architects are black, 0.1% of judges/magistrates are Asian, only 1.8% of automotive repairers are women, only 5.2% o…

No, and the answer why should be blindingly obvious to any intelligent person: computer engineering (as opposed to your chosen examples of truck driving childcare, and auto repair) is among the most well-paid, economically influential, and entrepreneurial profession today, and will become increasingly so in the future. Gender and race representation is simply of less concern for less aspirational, lower-paid professi…

> Gender and race representation is simply of less concern for less aspirational, lower-paid professions that do not require extensive education or access to technical resources.

This comes off as classist, to me. I have had the impression that promoting equality and diversity in certain professions is partly motivated by a want to make more people feel welcome in the profession. That is, for minorities and such that already work in the profession to have a good work environment.

Re: Things You Love are Made with Code

#47

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 7:10 PM UTC

ProAm wrote: post #25

afarrell wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is. There is value in learning to build things without being an engineer, but you should know the limits of your skill so you don't cause others harm.

| you should know the limits of your skill so you don't cause others harm Which is funny how the 'hacker' mentality is to build things fast and cheap. Along with Zuckerberg's "Most fast and break things" mantra.

[deleted]

Re: Things You Love are Made with Code

#48

Post by judk » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 7:14 PM UTC

ProAm wrote: post #25

afarrell wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is. There is value in learning to build things without being an engineer, but you should know the limits of your skill so you don't cause others harm.

| you should know the limits of your skill so you don't cause others harm Which is funny how the 'hacker' mentality is to build things fast and cheap. Along with Zuckerberg's "Most fast and break things" mantra.

Moved fast and broke the quotation.

Re: Things You Love are Made with Code

#49

Post by jiggy2011 » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 7:14 PM UTC

mrgn wrote: post #43

jiggy2011 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we have more women in STEM then we must have less men in STEM unless we grow the total number of STEM jobs by the same amount. So those men who would otherwise be in STEM must move to other professions, which means they either move into other male dominated professions and make them even more unbalanced or there must be an equivalent push to move them into a female dominated industry. If we do the latter then a po…

Diversity isn't a zero sum game. STEM is one of the fastest growing professional fields, meaning more people--of any gender--will need to fill those jobs. The goal is gender balance, there's no need to fear that a woman or a person of color accepting a newly created STEM job will somehow push a white man out of his existing position. Let's be realistic here.

Perhaps, but I could take these arguments more seriously if western countries weren't so excited about issuing more visas for tech workers. It's also possible that we have a tech bubble that people are wisely avoiding.

Re: Things You Love are Made with Code

#50

Post by Dewie » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 7:20 PM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #38

Dewie wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish I remembered where the study was now, but I remember reading one which said that girls were naturally curious about STEM careers, up to around 12, when it starts to tail off dramatically. The theory was that societal issues begin to kick in that makes girls not want to: no role models, fellow students telling them it's for nerds and no girls do it, male jock stuff. Or it could be puberty.

I would find it incredibly hard to believe that sexual maturity has anything to do with an interest in STEM. Some kind of evidence would change my mind, however!

> I would find it incredibly hard to believe that sexual maturity has anything to do with an interest in STEM.

When you put it like that it sounds kind of strenuous, sure. Just like it sounds weird in isolation to say that being sexually maturing is often connected with irritability and rebellion and defiance against parental and authority figures, if it were not for the fact that this is an incredibly common phenomenon. Kids tend to change a lot as they approach their teen years - their body, behaviour and personality, not just their sexuality.

It doesn't have to be purely or directly about puberty - maybe it has to do with the teenage tendency of seeking acceptance and approval with certain groups, and I don't imagine that programming has enough mind-share with teenage girls to give much "cred" compared to other activities.