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Re: undefined

#71

Post by gsz »

Jach wrote: post #66
gsz wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really get your second paragraph. If you can afford to help strangers, then you can afford to help your friends. What point are you trying to make? I'm not sure. And why do you help your family and friends? Why not focus on yourself only? My point is, why did you draw the line exactly at friends and family? You don't owe anything to the rest of society, nor the rest of society owe anything to you? Why do you…

Why draw the line at family and friends? It's a natural place to draw the line. I think if you study psychology and the evolution of the human mind that's pretty obvious. Additionally if you want to reason in a framework of debts, then you probably owe the most to your friends and family. You owe your entire existence directly to your parents -- it's hard to top that! Might as well stop there and just accept you have…

"Why draw the line at family and friends? It's a natural place to draw the line. I think if you study psychology and the evolution of the human mind that's pretty obvious."

I think if you study those things, you'll realize that it's not at all obvious. Clearly there's a difference between your blood relatives and the rest of humanity, but we collaborate and dependent on non-related strangers far more than any other species, and we have morals that support that kind of behavior. Why, do you think, we accuse people of nepotism, when they favor family in some scenarios (particularly in business and politics)?

I think the slogan "charity begins at home" is not appropriate to excuse one's ignorance of others' plight, and the fact that we have this debate is a good proof that human ethics are, in fact, more sophisticated.

Re: undefined

#72

Post by jamesjguthrie »

gsz wrote: post #71
Jach wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why draw the line at family and friends? It's a natural place to draw the line. I think if you study psychology and the evolution of the human mind that's pretty obvious. Additionally if you want to reason in a framework of debts, then you probably owe the most to your friends and family. You owe your entire existence directly to your parents -- it's hard to top that! Might as well stop there and just accept you have…

"Why draw the line at family and friends? It's a natural place to draw the line. I think if you study psychology and the evolution of the human mind that's pretty obvious." I think if you study those things, you'll realize that it's not at all obvious. Clearly there's a difference between your blood relatives and the rest of humanity, but we collaborate and dependent on non-related strangers far more than any other s…

It's completely obvious to me. Because I have morals, I may feel sorry for homeless/sick/poor/other people/animals/countries, but it's illogical to me to give my money/care/efforts to any other than those that rely on me.

Re: undefined

#73

Post by ozh »

dueprocess wrote: post #51
ozh wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry for your loss (your freewill & freedom I mean)

So taking the advice or instruction from someone smarter than you is a loss of personal freedom? Can you explain?

I don't define God as "someone", sorry

Re: undefined

#74

Post by jamesjguthrie »

dits59 wrote: post #65

I have three verses for you. He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the Lord; and that which he hath given will He pay him again. Pro 19:17 The generous will themselves be blessed, for they share their food with the poor. Pro 22:9 "Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to…

I have a verse for you.

"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." - 1 Timothy 5:8

Re: undefined

#75

Post by dits59 »

jamesjguthrie wrote: post #74
dits59 wrote: post #65

I have three verses for you. He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the Lord; and that which he hath given will He pay him again. Pro 19:17 The generous will themselves be blessed, for they share their food with the poor. Pro 22:9 "Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to…

I have a verse for you. "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." - 1 Timothy 5:8

This is exactly right, never ever forget your family.

Re: undefined

#76

Post by omgtehblackbloc »

masterponomo wrote: post #56

You should only give them money if they are in front of YOUR home, so they are more likely to become a permanent fixture in YOUR life. I live in a tourist area which also has several well-run shelters, which are not a problem. The problems are the vagrants who will not accept rules and organized help (for whatever reason--I'm not addressing that). If YOU pay them to beg in MY neighborhood then you are paying them to…

You do not have a moral or legal right to not be around poor people. The public areas near your home are not yours, and it's not reasonable for you to expect control over who is and is not welcome there. Particularly if, as you say, you choose to live in a tourist area where there are constantly many strangers around.

If you're concerned about the burden on social services, you should demand that your local government provide no-questions-asked, no-strings-attached SRO apartments for anyone on the street. It is far more cost effective than constant EMS and police attention. And despite your claim that "vagrants" will not accept organized help, I guarantee that almost all of them will if you remove the arbitrary and unnecessary rules and restrictions. There's a reason that many european nations have effectively no homelessness, and it's precisely because free housing is a given.

If our society treats getting someone into an apartment as a goal that we need to work for rather than a favor they need to work for, it becomes much easier.

Re: undefined

#77

Post by 5555624 »

I see active beggars everyday on my way to lunch, but the word on the street is to leave me alone and not bother me.

About 5 years ago, I gave one beggar some money. This was not the first time I'd noticed him, that had been when I walked by with some shirts and he said to his buddies, "See that guy? He's in the Klan!" ('Ku Klux Klan' for non-Americans.) He's an old black guy, in his 60s, with a sense of humor. He doesn't always ask for money. He always says "hi," even shouting it from across the street. We talk about happenings in the neighborhood, sports, etc. It's just a few minutes, once or twice a week; but it's more interaction than I have with some co-workers.

About a year ago, I found out that he had put the word out for no one to bother me. He figured out I can't help everyone, so he doesn't want someone ruining it for him. (I've only been asked by someone else once in the past year or so and I did help her.)

Re: undefined

#78

Post by lowmagnet »

ozh wrote: post #73
dueprocess wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So taking the advice or instruction from someone smarter than you is a loss of personal freedom? Can you explain?

I don't define God as "someone", sorry

Joseph Smith, Jr. was someone though. I'm not saying he was smart or anything, just that he wrote the Book of Mormon, and LDS follow such a book.

Re: undefined

#79

Post by fallinghawks »

station909 wrote: post #8
professorTuring wrote: post #3

I stopped giving money to "beggars" long ago. I usually help them by buying them what they need. I go with them to whichever close market or restaurant and buy them what they really need, I don't usually put a money limit but rarely goes over 20 bucks with a nice food basket. Part of these process is also listening to their stories, sometimes you can even hire them for some tasks and I usually tell them to help other…

There was one time, someone asked me for small change in order to buy water. I offered him to buy the water without giving him the money. He turned away and kept walking. This is why I tend not to give money (and feel really bad about it).

I've been asked at gas stations for a few bucks to buy gas. That one always seems to be a scam.

I tend to give money to older people and people who are offering a service. There was a guy who hung out at a grocery store with a bottle of window cleaner and rags, and he'd clean your car windows for whatever you gave him.

If they're young, look fairly healthy, or look like druggies, I don't give. If they demand a certain amount (I've had someone demand $20 from me!) I definitely don't give.

I don't see beggars close up all that often. Here they're usually standing at an intersection with a sign. If you're on foot in the City, there's a lot of panhandlers, and I think you'd be begging yourself pretty quickly if you gave everyone a few bucks.

Re: undefined

#80

Post by autodidakto »

dueprocess wrote: post #2

Here is what I do: I ALWAYS give, and I NEVER judge.

What about after you give them money and they look down at their hand like "WTF? That's it?" and walk away disgusted (or just stare at you)? Do you judge then?

I'm not making this up to be combative. I use to carry a bunch of coins in a quickly accessible pocket just to give to anyone who asks because I hate having to internally debate it every time. The passive beggars are always fine, but I've had frustrating experiences with the active ones (especially the drunk and mentally disturbed).

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