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Re: undefined

#51
post #44

As I commented earlier, I ALWAYS give and I NEVER judge. I do this because I'm a Latter-Day Saint[1] and God explicitly spells out in the Book of Mormon[2] how we should respond in such a situation: Succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to peris…

I'm sorry for your loss (your freewill & freedom I mean)

So taking the advice or instruction from someone smarter than you is a loss of personal freedom? Can you explain?

Re: undefined

#52
You are leaving implicit a very important question: What are your goals?

Otherwise, give them money if you want to. Don't give them money if you don't want to.

Re: undefined

#53
post #48

Giving money enforces and condones the behaviour of begging. I'm sure people's intentions are good, but by giving money directly you're keeping them on the streets.

The long term solution (getting someone off the streets) is irrelevant for most homeless people. They're homeless now . What might be done to fix their situation in the future isn't something they spend much time thinking about. Unless you have a way to get someone of the streets right there and then, giving them money is by far the best thing you can do.

Is getting people off the street and helping them lead productive lives not the aim of many charities? I prefer to give to them (and for them to use their judgement) than whoever I randomly find on the street.

Re: undefined

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really care what you think. Also, like most of the people that help, I do that to help people, not to brag about helping.

Like I say, I'm not accusing you personally of anything! And I agree with you completely - most people that help, do that because they think that helping people is the right thing to do. I'm saying that there are a whole other (much larger) class of people who actually don't help at all, but say that they do (to their friends, on HN etc) because they don't want to be thought of as miserly. Just look at the comments o…

Well, the problem here is that maybe you simply didn't notice. I have never noticed anyone buying goods for another people but I have seen a lot of people buying together, how can I be sure one of them were being helped by the other one?

When we are at a supermarket we don't usually notice anything beside our own grocery list...

Re: undefined

#55
You'll have to decide what you should do for yourself. If you are philosophically inclined I recommend looking at Famine, Affluence, and Morality by Peter Singer not because it is right or wrong but because it may help clarify your own thoughts by laying out a systematic approach to reasoning about the issue.

http://www.utilitarianism.net/singer/by/1972----.htm

Singer is arguably the 'greatest' philosopher of the last fifty years [1]. Agree with him or not, he has thought deeply about the issue and his reasoning around it and expressed these thoughts within a framework of rule based utilitarian philosophy.

Singer's Ted talk on the subject:

http://www.ted.com/talks/peter_singer_the_why_and_how_of_eff...

Singer's homepage at Princeton, the link page includes links to most of his papers:

http://www.princeton.edu/~psinger/

[1] Not that I am interested in arguing. I only use the term to suggest that the list of candidates is not very long, at the moment. In fifty years who knows?

Re: undefined

#56
You should only give them money if they are in front of YOUR home, so they are more likely to become a permanent fixture in YOUR life. I live in a tourist area which also has several well-run shelters, which are not a problem. The problems are the vagrants who will not accept rules and organized help (for whatever reason--I'm not addressing that). If YOU pay them to beg in MY neighborhood then you are paying them to stay right there and wait for more handouts, and they are a constant burden on the health, police, and social services system, to no avail. If you can't imagine encouraging them out in front of YOUR house, then don't do it in front of MY house. Volunteer for or donate to a relief organization, or take an individual into your home, if you really want to help.

Re: undefined

#57

I don't give to charities or homeless people. I live by the old saying, "Charity begins at home." If I can afford to help strangers then I can afford to help my family and friends, who are more important to me.

I don't really get your second paragraph. If you can afford to help strangers, then you can afford to help your friends. What point are you trying to make? I'm not sure.

And why do you help your family and friends? Why not focus on yourself only?

My point is, why did you draw the line exactly at friends and family? You don't owe anything to the rest of society, nor the rest of society owe anything to you? Why do you owe anything to your friends and family?

Re: undefined

#58

You should only give them money if they are in front of YOUR home, so they are more likely to become a permanent fixture in YOUR life. I live in a tourist area which also has several well-run shelters, which are not a problem. The problems are the vagrants who will not accept rules and organized help (for whatever reason--I'm not addressing that). If YOU pay them to beg in MY neighborhood then you are paying them to…

Impressive.

Re: undefined

#59
post #6

I suppose it depends on where you live. In my city (Cape Town) beggars can make up to $400 a week at certain high-traffic spots. People who give them money are enabling them. Also, in my city certain organisations exist to help the homeless and IMO it's better to donate to these groups instead. In many places in South Africa you are encouraged NOT to give money to beggars. http://giveresponsibly.co.za/ http://www.cap…

i once saw a beggar lady with a child on her back at a kfc in johannesburg, she had roll of notes and so many coins they couldn't fit in both her hands.

Re: undefined

#60
The replies on this thread make me sad.

I've been homeless, sleeping rough under bushes and on building sites. I was homeless for over 2 years when I was much younger.

I begged on a few occasions, perhaps 3-4 days in total. The rest of the time I attempted to earn money however I could (minus the dodgy offers I received to give blow jobs for toast and butter and other sexual services).

When I begged I did it because I really needed to, I had nothing else.

I did it because I was that hungry that I could no longer offer to knock down walls for £5 if someone could just lend me a sledghammer. I was too weak, or I was ill and unable to.

When I begged, those very few times, those people who gave me money were my saviours. I sometimes reflect that I shouldn't have made it off the streets, the odds were against me. I should be dead, never known enough to be forgotten.

Can you tell a person in need from one on the take?

Do you think it's race, or gender that defines that?

Do you think it's age?

Do you think that a person who appears more run-down has a more urgent need than someone who washed recently?

Do you think the urgency of need can be told from how they smell?

I can guarantee that you'll get it wrong some of the time.

I give today, without question. I know some are on the take, that most are not in that level of need. But I'm not going to walk past the person that is in that level of need and I know I can't tell the difference either.

I'm also not going to dictate that I'll buy some shitty fast food meal. I was ill so much on the streets. It's hard to be healthy when you're cold, damp, and frankly eating food that makes it hard to stay healthy at all. And sometimes I would skip meals, I'd feel hungrier if I ate... it stretched the stomach, created a bigger emptiness inside. Sometimes when I had money I needed to ration it on food I could digest over a long period of time... buying me a sandwich wouldn't have helped me greatly, it satisfies your need not mine.

This may be different in San Francisco (I've seen that you have a hell of a problem there)... my experience is in the UK where you may only pass a person begging every few days at most.

But seriously... that few quid in your pocket, it's not going to make a difference to your life, you'll still be at whatever your wealth level tomorrow. But it could really make a difference to the person you give it to.

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